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Episode #203
Renée Smith

Consulting with Love (Instead of Fear)

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What do you think is the most important job of a leader? It’s to eliminate fear from the workplace and fill it with love. Michael Zipursky’s guest today is Renée Smith, the Founder and CEO at A Human Workplace. Renée talks with Michael about how we are at our best as human beings when cared for. When we know we belong, we matter, and we contribute, that’s when we embody our full humanity. If you are passionate about being a loving, human-centered consultant, this episode’s for you. Tune in and practice what it is to be human at work!

I’m with Renee Smith. Renee, welcome.

Thank you, Michael. It’s so great to be with you.

You are the Founder and CEO of A Human Workplace that you have nearly two decades of experience providing organization development services to public private nonprofit organizations. You write, research, teach, and speak at many different conferences and events. I’d love to start this conversation is what does it mean when you say make work more human. I’m just wondering, what happens to a business or organization when they’re able to make work more human. If you could define that, and then once you embrace that concept, how does it play out within the organization?

To define that best, it’s helpful to go back to the genesis of this body of work. I’ve done, as my bio indicates, a lot of different kinds of organization development consulting over the years. When I was at the department of enterprise services in the state of Washington as an internal practitioner, directing organization development and lean continuous improvement work.

CSP 203 | Consulting With Love


We were doing all this culture work, and trying to create an environment where employees would step up and share their ideas and point out problems and have great conversations about how to make work better for Washingtonians. How to make the processes and things better for the people that they served. The process of doing this, I had this pivotal conversation with the CEO of my organization, the Executive Director, Chris Liu, who was a seasoned leader and 40 years in the private sector, and then he came to government.

I asked him, “What do you think is the most important job of a leader?” He immediately answered without hesitation, “To eliminate fear from the workplace.” That was just like music to my ears and make complete sense to me. It resonated as something that I had seen him try to do and tried to lead that way and encouraged us as an executive team to lead that way. I knew that when we’d done that well, good things had happened, when we have not done that so well, not such good things.

It made complete sense, and it also only seemed like half the story, because it seemed like if we’re decreasing fear, then something else is taking its place. I came to the conclusion and to the deep belief, that thing is love. That fear and love are these two primary human experiences that we have all of the difficulties and negativity that we experience in life has its roots in fear and all the positives stems from love.

I got clear for myself on that studied and came to understand the neurophysiology of both fear and love and how those two constructs, practices, and experiences play out in the workplace. We came to understand that we are at our best as human beings when we essentially feel cared about, that we belong, that we matter, that we can contribute, and that we can be who we are and not pretend we’re something else. When we can embody our full humanity, and when we welcome others to do that, when we are human centered. We create a human workplace, a loving workplace. All bets are off. Teams excel and step in and shine, meet hard challenges and do incredible things together. That’s what I mean by that.

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Let’s zoom into that a bit more because I want to make it very tangible for everyone. Can you provide an example or two of what fear might look like in an organization? How does it manifest itself? What would somebody need to be able to see or to sense if fear was present?

If fear is present, what people will see or sense? First of all, in saying those words, I would invite everyone to pause and think about a time when they felt afraid at work and you could think about that, too. The thing is that we all have these experiences. I don’t mean times when we felt uncomfortable like, “I’ve got this new challenge. I’ve got to meet this moment.”

That’s a good, healthy fear, but instead a time when we felt betrayed, when we’re facing change and no one was providing good guidance about how to navigate that change or what expectations were or how to be successful in that change. When maybe we were shamed or publicly humiliated, or when we faced a personal crisis and we weren’t supported.

Another example might be if we faced harassment, discrimination, or microaggressions. All of those are experiences that people tell me types of experiences and the research that I’ve done interviewing people about their experiences that they describe as being the kinds of fears that they’ve experienced. When people have those experiences, they shut down, they pull back, and they withhold. When a volunteer is needed for something, they don’t raise their hand. When we’re trying to engage to figure out what’s going on, no one’s going to tell because it’s not safe enough to tell. Those types of things.

How do you feel this applies to the solo consultant or the small consulting firm owner? Is this a concept that is only applicable to larger organizations that have, tens, hundreds, thousands of employees? In your experience, can this also have an impact if it’s one person or a group of 2, 3, 4, 5 very small firms?

Anytime there are human beings interacting together, the potential for fear or for love is there. It applies whether or not we’re in a large organization and structure that has many day-to-day opportunities for interaction or interactions are with partners, customers, suppliers, and maybe subcontractors that are part of our firm. Those same dynamics are there. The label on the relationship is slightly different but the potential is there for both sides.

That’s an important point that you’re making because, for every consultant, whether you’re a solo consultant or you have a team of 5, 10, 50 people, you’re still considered a smaller firm in the scheme of things, but you do have interactions with clients, where at times you might be fearful of the relationship or what’s the dynamic inside that relationship.

Even if you don’t have full-time employees or part-time employees, you might work with freelancers, contractors, or other vendors to support your clients. What is the opportunity there for the consultant to engage in a more effective, healthier way with their clients? How do you start to put some of these ideas into practice to remove fear and to create more love so that you can have a stronger relationship and a better overall outcome?

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Before I go there, I want to point out that there’s something having been both an external consultant and now an external consultant with all the dynamics that are involved with that. We have a team of affiliates around the world, but still, it’s me and my house, but also having been an internal consultant and employee of an organization doing very similar functions for internal clients.

The dynamic is, is very much the same, and the situations that I would run into potentially with leaders or with those I was trying to serve with teams is not that different. When I see them day to day, and we park in the same parking lot and we are in the same building and I’m maybe on different floors or whatever.

A client that I am navigating a relationship with might be weeks, but still we could have, as Bob Sutton would put it the bad leader, or we could have a caring, loving human leader who is asking for our services and either setting and the dynamics. There are some nuances, obviously when I’m self-employed, it can feel like, “Do I have to take this? Do I have to put up with this because I need the work?” That’s the dynamic that we deal with a lot. Not just around fear or love but do I believe in this work? Am I comfortable with what’s happening here?

That’s important. I appreciate you doing that. Most people reading to this are consultants. They might be solo. They might be a small firm owner, but they’re going to be dealing with clients. They’re going to be dealing with contractors or team members. What would be the first step? Is there a way to even gauge, is our organization or the relationships that I have is fear present or is there a love? How do they know whether they need to spend time exploring this or not?

That can be gauged a few different ways. One is just a gut check. All of this has to begin with us getting clear with ourselves about how fear has played out for us and the impacts that had in us. It only takes a little bit of reflecting on when have I experienced fear and how did that impact me in my work, physical body, personal life, mental health, performance, and how has feeling some version of love, respect, trust, care, kindness, empathy, inclusion, and appreciation, how has that impacted me? It starts with getting clear for ourselves, and then as far as understanding what’s happening with the teams that we’re working with, let’s say a team of affiliates perhaps. Wanting to know like, are they experiencing me as a loving leader?

What are we creating together? That hopefully can begin with a conversation about that with a statement of commitment. I want to be a loving human-centered leader. I want us to be this kind of team. I’m aware that my experience might not be your experience. That’s particularly important as the more diverse a team is. Understanding that the experience that I have as a cisgender White middle-aged woman is not the same as a younger woman of color or a man of color or an LGBTQ person.

There are lots of different experiences that people are having, and so we can’t even enter that moment of conversation without acknowledging. We are all having different experiences. I care about your experience. I want it to be this way. I would value an honest conversation to know how are you experiencing what we’re creating together. There’s also Amy Edmondson’s psychological safety, it’s a seven-question rating, could be also a good point to get some data and have a conversation and explore. Those are a few things.

That conversation is so important. I’ve found this as well over the years as we’ve been building our team pretty consistently and at an accelerating pace. It’s been a lot of fun, a lot going on, which is exciting, but the importance of having that open dialogue with team members, showing them that you care, ask them questions is a good place to start. Let’s say you have that initial conversation, what happens next? If you were to give them a couple of pieces of advice, where to begin, how can you try and remove fear from that organization?

I can very clearly see that benefit if people are full of fear, they’re not going to take action. If they’re not taking action, they’re not going to create results. They’re not going to collaborate. They’re not going to be as productive. The benefits of having people feeling safe, love, and cared for, it’s a no-brainer to me. It makes complete sense. Let’s say that people buy into that as well, that they’re excited by that. What would be 2 or 3 things that you would recommend that people could do to remove fear in their environment and create more love, as you call it so that they can get the results and the outcomes that they want?

There are three things that my research that people described in my research that created more loving workplaces. When I ask people, this is what I did. I like to set up social, qualitative research project. Interview people about their stories of fear and love. The love stories, sometimes people would say, “I felt loved when this happened,” and they would use the L word. Other people would say something like, “I wouldn’t use the word love, but I want to tell you about a time when I felt respect, trust, or kindness.” They would giving the operational definition of what love looks like. All the different permutations of being cared about are in for a workplace.

When I asked them that, the stories that I got back had three basic types. One was my leader cares about me as a person. My leader took an interest in me. I was respected and trusted for who I am. I’m acknowledged and I’m trusted to innovate. They know how I want to learn and grow and give me those opportunities, those kinds of things.

Paying attention, getting to know people who they are, and then lining up opportunities for people to live into that and letting go and taking risks. Sometimes it is like, “I’m going to let this person step into this space, and maybe they haven’t done that before.” That can feel more high stakes when it’s just us and a handful of people, but that’s where beautiful things happen.

The second love story that people describe as they say, “My team is like a healthy, loving family.” This is an interesting one for those of us who are solopreneurs or who have affiliates that are in a looser network that we work with sometimes, and we work with other people sometimes. Yet still we have the opportunity to create that sense of strong belonging, connection, commitment to each other and trust. When people say we’re like a healthy, loving family, they mean we have each other’s backs, we’re there for each other. We cover and take care of things when someone has to be away.

They talk about, what if there’s a problem or a challenge that can be thrown down and people can circle that and give their ideas and have good, healthy disagreements. It’s creating that environment where that is welcomed and supported. For my own team, we’re now upwards of 30 global affiliates and adding a few more here.

Many of them, I have never met in person because of COVID, because so many people have come around and flock to what we’re doing during this time. It always makes me laugh when I hear people being so worried about like, “How are we going to build good, healthy connection and a sense of team and culture if we can’t be in the same room together?”

Certainly, I’ve missed that, but we have done that. We have these incredibly strong bonds of trust, care, respect, and belonging. The third love story that people tell, that third opportunity to create this environment is when the chips are down in someone’s personal life. Stuff happens. We face difficulties and hardships and certainly, we’ve all been in that.

There’s divorce, illness, death in the family, and other kinds of things that people go through. If people are told, “We don’t want that on the team. Deal with that in your personal life and come to us all cleaned up and tidy.” We experienced that as a betrayal of our humanity to have to pretend that things aren’t happening. If we’re able to and make the choice to be there for people in those hard moments, that creates an incredible sense of connection, trust, and a sense of love.

Thanks for sharing those three. Many people will see themselves and see their relationships and interactions in parts of those. Hopefully, for everyone with us right now, you’re thinking about how can you apply 1 or 2 of those questions or concepts to the relationships that you have with your clients, with your team members, even in your personal relationships. I could see this being very powerful.

I want to switch up a little bit here now and have us look into and explore your career, because you were working in the public sector, and then you made this transition into the world of consulting. You didn’t just go in the corporate world to consulting, 100% there was a bit of a transition. Can you walk us through what were those stages and when did you become a full-time consultant? You started 2017 and then there was a progression where to 2020, so three years later, you went 100% into consulting. What did that transition look like for you?

I’ll go back a little bit further back to 2001. Right off, as I was coming out of my training, I began to consult at that point. I had some experiences as a small solo doing local projects with nonprofits and small business, and then eventually some corporate work, too. I went into employment for a time. I was at a university employed in organization development.

I’m not as a professor, but as a practitioner for the campus, and then I went to state government. I was at the Department of Enterprise Services leading organization development and continuous improvement and lean. That was an interesting role because we had services for our agency. It was an entrepreneurial organization. We had government to government consulting services that my team offered to any government anywhere. It was fascinating to be like have a consultancy from government to government.

Choose to be there for people during hard moments to create an incredible sense of connection, trust, and love. Click To Tweet

Are you already getting your consulting chops and experience while working within this organization?

I’d had some previous, but then in this new incarnation, got to do some then, and that was mostly around our lean work. That was the primary focus. In parallel to that, I had this epiphany moment about love and fear, and a friend who was in consulting, successful writer and entrepreneur took a look at my work and said, “You are onto something important here.”

He said, “You need to get yourself a Squarespace site and you need to get on LinkedIn. Those two things and start blogging and speaking, and sharing about this. It will happen.” At this point, I was employed within this government agency but with a lot of latitude because of this government-to-government work to explore this whole channel and this whole vein of work.

It made sense to be a thought leader in this space, given what my work was there. I spent the next year doing that and he was right. There’s nothing like someone speaking about love in government to have like, “She does stop the car. What did you just say?” It was pretty captivating and it created a lot of momentum.

What did you do? I went on LinkedIn. I wrote some articles. I did some speaking. When you look back with the benefit of hindsight. Out of all the things that you did, what do you think had the biggest benefit and impact and a result that helped to launch your business? Was it one of those things specifically? What do you think made the difference out of all those things?

First of all, the one good idea as my mentor Edie Seashore has told me years ago. This one clear good idea that I was deeply committed to and believed in. There was an alchemy of I took all my data away to the beach and then this five-day stint at the beach on Monterrey. I made sense of the data. I created my talk. The talk that I created that week is still the basic talk that I give with some tweaks around the edges. I wrote eight blog posts and it was just this huge leap forward. I had some consistency to be able to begin to put things out there and interact on that.

The other thing that happened, and this comes from in my early-50s, I lived a lot of different life and probably felt insecure at different points in life where I might’ve felt threatened or they’re saying something that’s like my thing. There’s this worry that we have that we’re not going to have it or bring it fast enough, or someone’s going to cut in on our thing. I’ve had those early experiences of that, and this was so not that. What happened was people would contact me and say, “You’re bringing that into the world?”

Here’s the thing that I’m saying, and I’m talking about kindness. I’m out here taking a stand for compassion or on and on all of these different aspects of love or diversity and inclusion. People saw themselves, and thankfully I was in a place of being able to say, “Let’s connect and join hands. I want to amplify what you’re doing.” I would frame it as a much more generous space to be in.

When you say generous, is that because you weren’t running the business full-time? You weren’t counting on income from consulting because you still had the job. You’re much more in an open, collaborative, “Let’s see how things play out?” Not feeling the pressure that you have to generate a client right now, is that correct?

Correct. That helped. Honestly, 2021 has its own trajectory, its own story which I can share about that has had me back on my heels a little bit. We went so deep and heavy into a singular focus to respond to the pandemic, that I had to come up for air and go, “You forgot what you were supposed to be doing, which is bringing this message forward.” It had me wobble a little bit, and I’ve watched a lot of friends publish their books which has been a joy and has had me excited, “I have something that I’m working on writing and I need to get on it.”

You mentioned that you were bouncing around a little bit, is it that main core message around fear and shifting that more to love in the workplace and treating people more like humans? Is it that you veered away from that a little bit to support what was happening in COVID? Without going too deep into it, because I want to cover a few of other things with you as well. I’m wondering what is the lesson? Where’s my bill to take away from that and maybe able to catch themselves a little bit earlier as a warning sign before they go too far down that path?

After the year and the agency doing this work, the governor’s office said, “We believe in what you’re doing. We want you to bring this work to the governor’s office and do it at a state level.” They created a position for me as director of workplace transformation for the state of Washington. My entire job was to help make state workplaces more loving and human.

I did that until I got back from traveling internationally and speaking in five countries in three weeks and came back in December of 2019 and said, “I need to step out. It’s time.” In December of 2019, I set March 2nd, 2020 as my last day of work. I’m just outside Seattle, where everything went down early and fast here with COVID.

March 3rd, 2020 is my first day home working privately. By March 6th, 2020 it was clear. I’m not going to New Zealand. I’m not going to Europe like none of this is happening and I need to pivot. We had a whole community though developed already and the immediate pivot was to begin to offer a virtual version of the in-person work that we’d been doing, which are human workplace gatherings.

Specifically focused on working alone together. A few colleagues and I crafted this new gathering and we were live by March 16th, 2021 with our first virtual gathering and have hosted thousands of people this 2021 with this very particular methodology. I brought all the stuff of my career home and then put it all away in cupboards in the attic.

I hid it off and focused on this one thing. It was the urgency and need of the moment, and then people came around and joined me to help with that one thing. I trained them to host licensed people, all of that took off, and then I had to pause and think, “This isn’t the only thing. This is just one thing.” There’s a bigger thing here that will inform multiple things that we offer. It wasn’t at all leaving behind the message. It was just focusing on offering one product to deliver that message very specific to this time.

What’s the difference? You said that there was something else, something bigger, something higher up that would inform the one offering. What is that?

I feel strongly and what I have heard from people, so in 2019, I spoke 100 times literally to 100 audiences around the world. The feedback that I get from doing that is, “I thought this was going to be woo-woo, bunnies and rainbows, squishy. I wasn’t sure, but I get it now.” You’ve made the business case for me about why this is important and you’ve connected it to my own experience and I get it.

I know deeply in my heart and soul that delivering that message is my primary job. Everything else flows from that, and I have clients as well, the consulting clients who were helping on this path in different ways, and I have a team of people who can help people on this path in different ways, but my primary job is to share that message. The breaking through, interrupting business as usual thinking, and frankly, letting people know your human instincts, especially that have come so forward during COVID and during the racial reckoning, those are the right instincts. Follow those.

If you’re speaking to thousands of people over the last months or so, isn’t that a way of sharing your message or do you see is there something different between delivering that message in that gathering structure as opposed to you giving talks or other ways of sharing? I want to make the distinction of how you see different things.

What we were doing and what we still do in gatherings is very experiential. Whether it’s working alone together, standing together for love and justice. All these different permutations of helping people process the pandemic or be ready to move forward. We’re talking a lot about forward to work now. All of those are times when we bring people in.

We welcome them. There’s music, poetry, and we do some breathing. Usually, there’s a tiny teaching, enough to just give people something, I like to call it one bite of the apple. I don’t want to give people the whole bushel of apples to eat, but get one good bite of the apple and then taste it, chew it, swallow it, and be nourished by it.

There is that, and then we effectively use triode breakouts for people to generously listen to each other and sharing in uninterrupted fashion they’re processing of whatever the topic or question is. That’s very experiential. By the end, we want people to have experienced a bunch of wellbeing practices where they can take care of themselves and support their team, but that’s not making the case. That’s not bringing the business case for more love and less fear. That’s the distinction.

That’s more would be almost a service that you would offer once the business case has been made. You’re speaking, the business case has been made. Leaders are going, “We need this.” The way that you can then help them to have the experience is then through these gatherings. Each of these gatherings, these are paid gatherings. Each participant will pay to be there. Is that how it works or what’s the pricing structure on it?

We’ve offered a bunch of free this year, and part of it, we did a lot to just generously build community and help take care of people in 2020. Organizations and sponsor pay for those internally as well. The same methodology pivots from COVID processing to the cultural values that matter to your organization.

Helping people explore. We like to talk about it as discovering and practicing what it is to be human at work in terms of your cultural values. If you say you are about creativity, then let’s experience creativity together. If you say you’re about kindness or compassion, then let’s experience those qualities together. I’ve found it’s been important also to help people and sometimes it’s our HR leaders to distinguish and understand that when we say we’re about something, we put stakes in the ground about certain values.

Those need to show up in our policies and our processes and the way that we formally do things as an organization. We’ve got to take those and apply and weave them in and make sure that our hiring process, for example, is an excellent example of who we say that we are or the way that we meet is a good example of that to who we say we are.

At the same time, on the other side, there are all these little moments that matter to people. When I come in and something great has happened, something terrible has happened, professionally or personally, how we care for each other in those moments? How do we help people as my friend Patty point the term, how we help people feel seen, heard, understood, valued, and appreciated? It’s in both the policy and process stuff, but also in those moments that matter as human beings.

Speaking of process, just to understand. On the front end of you are marketing your sales process, there’s a lot of content that goes out. Articles, LinkedIn, speaking, that then results in people reaching out to you saying, “This resonated, can you help us with it?” You’ll send off a proposal, have a conversation. That leads them to doing either one-to-one consulting with your organization or doing these gatherings, and those are the paid engagements. Is that correct or anything else that I’m missing there?

Yes. There are gatherings, whether it’s about COVID or about cultural work. We’re thinking about the forward to work version of this now is reconnecting with care. Helping people process and reconnect and being ready to set down things and heal from the trauma that has been experienced, so they’re ready to have the conversation about back to the office or forward to work and whatever permutation they’re going to be in then it’s understanding, discovering what do customers want now? What do employees want now?

These all through gatherings or workshops? How does that work?

There would be different kinds of workshop sessions. The gathering format is particular to exploring and discovering in a particular way, but then we have all the open space and connecting people in different kinds of ways creatively. Work is pretty creative and adaptive. There would be workshops to discover what people need and want now and to re-examine our values.

It was a strategy moment that we have, and then designing then what is this new workplace going to be like? Frankly, designing our culture. This idea that like, “How we’re going to create culture now, unless we’re in person?” I get that, that’s all maybe we’ve seen, but it is totally possible and I would liken it to an Apollo 13 moment.

Apollo 13, the capsule was designed for two astronauts to come home, not three, and NASA had to dump all the stuff on the table that the astronauts had in that capsule, if you remember the movie and the story. From all those things on the table, they had to assemble and create an oxygen cleanser to get three astronauts home.

That was their design challenge. We have a similar design challenge. After we’ve understood what customers want now, it’s probably not the same exactly as it was before. What employees want now we know that’s not the same as it was before. What we value now has probably shifted. We need to dump all of that on the proverbial table and grasp within these bounds. What can we do with this to create the culture that’s going to get us the results that we want? That’s true, whether we have an affiliate team or we’re in a corporation, and then the last piece is collaboratively planning. I’m a big advocate for collaborative planning.

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You mentioned the affiliates several times. I want to understand what does that look like? You have 30 or so affiliates. Are these people that pay an annual licensing fee to access your body of work? What does this look like and why have you gone down that path? Maybe just start off, what is the affiliate relationship look like with these 30 or so people?

The affiliates that came forward in 2020, I would call them our pioneer affiliates, because frankly, I was just fresh, weeks into full-time work and not even had a chance to say, “Here’s how we’re going to do this thing. Here’s the business model.” It’s more like I plunged into it, and suddenly had people saying, “I’m in these where organization development professionals who I knew were trained and had a baseline set of skills.”

Some of them I had relationships with. Some of them I would meet and we would talk, and frankly, it was me discerning whether they align up with who we are and what we believe in. With that then discernment, this first group were willing to go on this journey with me, that was a messy, ambiguous and ill-defined. We work to create a definition out of that.

What I put in place, we trained that initial group and how to host gatherings, and they became both affiliates available for work. They became licensed as well, so that they could use this method in their own practice if they chose to. We priced it like bargain basement low for that initial group, and they could trade in kind, too. If you remember back more than a year ago, we didn’t know where our money was coming from or how it was going to be work for us. I felt like if people could, then they could pay that’s great, but just as much valued other kinds of contributions that they made to the community.

Knowing what you know now, and based on where the world is, let’s just say we’re certainly not past COVID or we’re in a better place than we were in 2020, what would the structure be? Is it people would pay to go through that training, licensing, and learning the body of work and then they would pay an ongoing annual fee or a revenue share percentage of what they bring in? How are you thinking about the model and what would you recommend if somebody was thinking about doing something similar?

I don’t know if I can go anywhere near recommending, because every situation is so different, but I will say we’ve been grappling. A part of my question this year has been, “What is it? What is this?” It was so much emergent and suddenly a thing, and I had to sort through and just figure that out. What’s becoming clear is that we have some folks that have joined, because they are looking for business opportunities and subcontracting opportunities. With that group, some fee for training and for affiliation front is part of the model. There are others who have joined, who wanted to learn to host and to take the product into their own community, and the hosting fee applies to that.

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We have this other set of folks who are employed, who are not consultants, but who have come forward and become part of this internal, we’ve called it a community of practice. I’m getting ready to call it a community of action. This community who are working for cities, school districts, and companies, but who were in the inner circle, if you will, who are going to be part of an advisory board.

That sorting through, why are people here? What are they getting? What surprised me and been beautiful is how much they have loved being together. How much they’ve loved and found their way to each other and have valued the community itself. As we’ve developed together in those relationships, that’s strengthened the place that we can consult from.

Three Rapid-fire questions here before we wrap up. The last one be very easy. The first is, the best book you’ve read or listened to?

My go-to book is, now I’m going to freak out and not remember it.

What’s the topic?

It’s about love.

The second question is your most powerful daily habit. One thing that you do every day that you feel is integral to your success, productivity and happiness.

Before the pandemic hit, I decided to sell my house and find a place that’s nurtured my soul to live and I rent a little cottage by the beach. My one habit that nurtures me through this work is to go down and look at the water. Being in that space and killing myself that I cannot remember the name of this book.

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Let me know after and we’ll keep this as suspense for everybody joining us. This my third and final question, but first of all, thanks so much for coming on and sharing a bit of your story and the work that you’re doing. It’s clearly about making a dent in the world, making the world a better place. That’s just fantastic. I want to applaud you on that. Where should people go to learn more about you and your work?

They can go to or to and they can reach out to me and happy to talk to folks. My email is [email protected]. The book, here it is, A General Theory of Love.

Renee, thanks so much for coming on.

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