It’s a known fact that consulting firms tend to be small businesses with a small number of employees. Oftentimes, because of this, when a simple knock is at the door, we tend to burst it open, ever-willing to accept all the opportunities. However, this leads to finding your business drowning with all of these things that you start losing your purpose. Giving his insights on this dilemma is Dov Baron who is named one of the top leadership speakers in the world and someone who has been working with high-level individuals. Dov shares the difficulty for consultants to say “no” and learning the value of doing just that. Talking about opportunities and sharing his career journey, he gives great advice on how you can take your business to the next level and onto a bigger audience through speaking engagements.
I’m very excited to have Dov Baron joining us. Dov, welcome.
Thank you, Michael. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s an honor and I’m looking forward to serving you and the audience.
I’m very excited to have you on as I’ve always enjoyed our conversations. To start with, take a moment and explain to everyone that isn’t familiar with your work, what it is that you do?
I’m a plumber. I unblock drains mostly.
In some ways, you do. That is true.
It’s exactly what I do. I speak internationally. I was blessed to be named on the top leadership speakers in the world, to hire twice by Inc. Magazine in a row. I speak internationally. I train companies and organizations and build their corporate cultures. I work one-on-one with high-level individuals who want to get to where they want to get to but don’t know what’s in the way. Very often those are people who are very powerful, very successful. They’re already doing great. They are the kinds of people that others look at and go, “I want to be you when I grow up.” Very often, they are the “smartest person” in the room. They are wonderful successful people but they’re going, “I know there’s something else,” and they don’t how to get to it. They don’t because it’s a blind spot. By its very nature, a blind spot cannot be seen by that person. My skill is to be able to see those things, show people how to get through those blocks and move them through very fast. That’s why I work with high power people.
You mentioned a few accomplishments there, which are very well-recognized by people, being named on the Inc. list and so forth. You’ve also worked with the United Nations, the World Management Forum, the US Air Force. To give the audience a better sense of the types of organizations or businesses that you work with, what other names have you supported and served?For you to be outstanding, you need to learn to be able to say no to what's not right for you as an individual. Click To Tweet
Some of the companies that I worked with don’t let me say them because the work is very deep and very personal. The US Air Force, the UN, the State Department, generically I can mention any of those things, the World Leadership Conference, that was out of Iran. Also with health tech companies, we just came back from working with Helios, which is a $300 million health tech company out in Philadelphia. They tend to be what we consider in the US middle to top-end companies, $100 million plus, who understand the value of having a purpose-driven organization. This is no longer a hyperbole or a trend or a cool thing. Now we understand because of Millennials. Millennials want meaningful work and meaningful work means saying that I want to work for a company as a Millennial.
If I’m top town, I want to work with a company who are purpose driven. That determines, first of all, loyalty. That cuts down your costs enormously in retraining and rehiring by working with a company that is purpose-driven. I tend to stay loyal to them, which means I’m innovative. I show up more and more engaged. We all know that the workforce is more than 70% disengaged. Just think of that and that means less than a third of your people. Let’s say you’re paying $100,000 to your team. That means you’re only getting $30,000 with the value at the top end. Everybody else is simply costing and some of the people are working against you. If you don’t get your people super loyal to you, your business is going down fast. This is one of the things that old companies don’t get, “We’ve been doing this for 40 years and we’ve been very successful. We’ve got a billion-dollar company,” and I go, “You’re right, but there are a lot of billion-dollar companies that disappeared in 2010.” After 2008 to 2009, gone.
Even for consultants or small consulting firm owners that are saying, “I don’t have many staff or just a few people,” what I’m reminded of in terms of what you’re sharing right now is it’s back to the Pareto Principle, the 80/20. It’s not always 80/20, it might be 70/30 as the example you shared. In most activities or whether it’s your marketing or how you interact or the actions that you take, most of your positive results come from a few of your actions. Honing in on that and being able to put more into what’s working to make it even better, helps with the exponential growth and clearly that’s what you’re helping people to do.
You made a great point there. It’s important for those of us in this consulting industry to get people who consult fall into two categories, “I used to do X and now I’m a consultant doing X for others or showing others how to do X. I used to do A, B, C, D, E, F and G, and now I’m a consultant doing A, B, C, D, E, F and G, and showing others how to do that. I’m also not bad at X, Y and Z.” The challenge for a consultant is because we tend to be small businesses, meaning that we don’t have a massive staff with us, some mostly. When that happens, we tend to be grabbing opportunities and it’s very challenging to learn to say no. My biggest challenge and my biggest lesson is when to say no. I’ve written pieces about it on LinkedIn called The Integrity of No. It’s a difficult thing for consultants to get but for you to be outstanding, you need to learn to be able to say no to what’s not right for you as an individual. Not just for your brand, but for you to be in integrity with whatever your purpose is. You need to know your purpose in order to be able to say no.
That might be the type of projects that are presented, the fees that those projects are coming at you. It might be the type of client; a lot of different ways or opportunities that are presented to us. Saying no to the wrong ones then leaves us available to say yes to the right ones. If you fill your calendar with too many things that are of low value or don’t resonate with you, then you get dragged down by those. You start to hit capacity with the wrong things. When something good comes around it, it isn’t your sweet spot, it’s much harder for you to be able to say yes to it.Saying no to the wrong ones leaves us available to say yes to the right ones. Click To Tweet
You know this better than most people. You teach people how to do this and this is why you’re a master at what you do and that’s the whole point here. I was discussing this with a leader I work with. One of the things I’ve said is, “How do you know an opportunity?” That’s a big question for people. People go, “I put money in the bank or I build my rep or whatever it is.” Those are fair estimates of what opportunity is, but the thing to understand is not all opportunity is equal. I’m going to give you my way of classifying it and I hope it will help people. Opportunity falls into this if it is aligned with my purpose, if it is aligned with the culture I am building, and if it is aligned with the resources that I have. Those resources are not just money but also time and energy. I had a guy work for me in marketing and he was driving me nuts. I said to him, “That’s it, I had enough.” He goes, “What?” I said, “You need to come to me with a budget,” and he goes, “I’ll show that,” because he wasn’t showing up with budgets. I said, “I don’t just want the money budget, I want three budgets.” He goes, “What are the three budgets?” I go, “Money, time and Dov time.”
Money, how much will it cost and how much will we bring in? Time, how long will it take? What is your estimate on how long this will take? Thirdly, how much Dov time will it need? How much of my personal time and energy and attention will it need? As consultants, we don’t generally do that. We’re looking to bill out something and get it done and get in and get another gig. That’s not how you build your opportunity. Your opportunities fall into purpose, culture and resources. From there you look at, is this an opportunity based on that and the budget that I gave you?
I was having a conversation with a client who is very passionate in the social sector and working with businesses that are doing good. He asked me, “Michael, do you think this is going to get in the way of me growing my business?” I said, “You can’t change it. That’s who you are. That’s what you believe in. Don’t think about how that might get in your way. Instead, use that as one of your criteria for removing, disqualifying people from your marketing so that you can get crystal clear around who your ideal client is. Focus on those types of organizations that you are going to feel good about, that’s going to resonate better with you. Also, because you feel that way, they’re going to resonate better with you in your conversations because you’ll be speaking to the right kinds of people.”
For him, he felt a bit of a sigh of relief knowing that, “It’s not a bad thing if I feel this way. I can now use this as one additional criterion to get clear and to move closer to who my actual ideal clients should be.” The whole thing that you mentioned there, Dov, and said so well around client selection and becoming very clear on who we want to work with, what we want to offer them, and does it align with our purpose and these other resources and so forth. These are important principles and ideas for people to use in their business.
Let’s go back a little bit because you’ve been doing this now for a while. What that means is that this is not your first time around the block. That’s why you’re here because I want everyone to be able to tap into your wisdom, to your experience. We can learn the lessons, the good, the bad from you because you’ve been there and done that a couple of times or more. Back to where you got started when you began speaking, writing and consulting, do you remember how you got your first client?
I remember I got my first speaking gig. The answer to that is simply that I didn’t know it was my first client.
Where did that come from? Did it come from speaking or something else that you did? What happened there?Not all opportunity is equal. Click To Tweet
It came from a conversation, very interestingly. I’ve been doing this for 34 years. Before this, I’ve always been an entrepreneur as a kid and I owned businesses in the UK, Canada and in Australia. In my business in Australia, I had a customer. We would have these great conversations and he was the one who gave me my first speaking gig. Now I think about it, he was also the person who gave me my first consulting gig. I wasn’t consulting in the same way that I am now, but he was the first one and it came out of this natural evolution of a conversation. He would come in and we would have these great in-depth, philosophical, psychological, even metaphysical conversations. That’s how he introduced me to speaking.
One of the things he said after I had spoken is, “I want you to come in, talk to this small group and have them break through what I call breaching the bias.” It’s helping people to see their own bias. The things we believe, we don’t call them beliefs, we call them the truth. That was what I had a conversation with him about the day before when he and I had this great conversation about, “How do you define the truth?” The answer is you don’t. It is the truth for you. We see this now in polarized politics, the facts don’t matter. The truth is whatever the person chooses to believe. What I was working with these leaders around was how do you breach the bias? I’d come out of the fact, and I may have talked to you about my first speaking gig because it will give this context.
What had happened was this guy I was telling you about, Steve, owned the National Menswear Company. We had this great conversation one day and he said, “I want you to come speak to my leaders.” I said, “That sounds alright. What do you mean?” He goes, “Speak to them.” I said, “I’m not a speaker. How long do you want me to speak?” He says an hour. I was like, “Forget it.” Of course, it’s a warm-up, but back then it was terrifying as an idea. I agreed to do 30 minutes but he had one simple proviso. He said, “You come dressed as you are.” This was in 1984. I was in my early twenties and I’d been a bodybuilder for about five years at that point.
When you’re in your early twenties and you’ve been bodybuilding for five years, it’s important that everybody knows you’re a bodybuilder. I wear shirts that were too tight. I showed off my physique because I was in my twenties and my hair was super long. It was past my chest. It was that Louis the XIII look, the Howard Stern from the ‘80s look. I had big earrings, my hair was out, it was wild and a tight shirt on ripped jeans. He said, “My only proviso is that you come dressed as you are.” I was like, “You know I have suits,” because he owned the National Menswear Company, he made my suits. That’s how I had originally met him. He said, “I don’t want you to wear a suit. I want you to wear what you’re wearing.” I said, “Okay,” and he goes, “Get to the door and wait.”
I get to the door on that particular day, I put my head in the door as instructed by him, look down this long boardroom table. All the guys that were in front of me looked like Gordon Gekko from Wall Street, that buttoned up tight, it was the ‘80s. They all gave me this nod, which the English term is the bugger off nod, which is that putting the head to the side saying, “Bugger off you’re in the wrong room,” but they’re not saying it because they’re listening to Steve. Eventually, Steve introduced me and I went in. I stood in front of them. In the early ‘80s, there were a lot of issues around aboriginal people of Australia and racism. I said, “Put your hand up if you’re a racist.” You can imagine how many put their hand up, absolutely zero. I said, “Put your hand up if you would judge somebody by the way they look, the color of their skin or their appearance in any way.” Nobody put their hand up. I said, “You’re a bunch of freaking liars.” I said, “Every one of you judged me by the way that I look. Every one of you decided who I was, the money that I had, the intelligence that I had by the way that I looked. Every one of you is wrong because that’s how I know Steve, you make my suits. I don’t dress like this, I wear suits.”
At that point, I thought I’d done myself in. I looked over at Steve and he had this big grin on his face. It was that gig that got me the consulting gig because I demonstrated that I could show people how to see their own bias. Breaching that bias is what changes everything because the world’s view opens up to you. The initial question to it is this, stand outside of a door, look through the keyhole, how much can you see? You will have a perception of the room. Open the door but don’t pass through the opening. How much can you see? You can see a lot more than you ever could. Step into the room and you can see even more, but what you don’t know is beyond that room is another door that opens up into a massive vista. That’s what I do. That was what my first consulting gig was. It was showing people where their bias was, how it was limiting them, testing their truth so they could pass through those and then open up to more opportunity in every area of their life.The truth is whatever the person chooses to believe. Click To Tweet
What percentage of your business would you say comes from your speaking?
The rest would be what? Was it from consulting or how would you break down your current business operations?
There are several categories. In speaking, there’s corporate consulting, which is working with corporate teams, working with the executive teams of companies and training them around purpose. There’s individual consulting personal strategist for high-level leaders in finding and operating out of their purpose. Aside from that, there are my cool system product lines. I have my own courses, books, like twelve books and courses and those kinds of things. It breaks up into all those categories.
Is speaking your main lead generator right now? Is it your podcast? What’s working best for you to generate or bring in new business opportunities?
I would say without a doubt, the number one is always word of mouth from my clients. My clients will go away and tell their friends, even though a lot of the work that I do is quite private. A lot of those people don’t make videos for me. Some of them do but many of them don’t. They will simply go away and talk to their friends and say, “You’re a high achiever, you’re at this top level. I know it’s hard for you to say that you need help. This is the guy to talk to.” It comes from those people. That’s the highest level of where my consulting business comes from. The next would definitely be from speaking and after that, it is through social media. When I say social media, not Facebook, but the fact that I write for fifteen outlets. After that, it’s my podcast, which I’ve had for ten years and is the number one podcast in the world for Fortune 500 listeners. It’s still the lowest on the totem pole for referrals but it’s very good for leverage.
One thing that people would be very interested in learning more about, Dov, is how you went from that first speaking gig in Australia to getting onto world stages and to be known as an expert in speaking and delivering messages to large audiences. If you could boil down a little bit of your journey around the steps that you took to get onto bigger stages, what would they be? If someone maybe has done a couple of Toastmasters talks or networking types of speaking engagements, what do they need to do to get to that next level to start getting in front of bigger audiences?
It’s a different world now than it was when I started. When I started, if you wanted to see me speak, I jumped on a plane or you did. Now, I’ve got 500 videos on YouTube. I’ve got close to 500 episodes of my podcast. I’ve got more than more than 500 articles on my blog. Those are all ways to get my content, so that world is very different. To get better gigs, to get more gigs, you have to raise your profile. How do you do that? We are all familiar with the idea of writing a book. That’s never been easier than it is today with POD, print on demand. Amazon has made that all possible, so I would highly recommend that. The other thing around that is write for outlets and also this is very important, collaborate with others who you admire.
Tell me more about that one specifically.
For instance, if you come to me and say, “How can you help me?” “I don’t know. Is that my job?” It’s not my job to work out to help you. Your job is to come to me and say, “Here’s how I can help you.” Give me a way that you can help me, that allows you to tag yourself to me. That way my following gets to know you. Add value to my audience. For instance, on my website it doesn’t say blog. It says, “Read the icons.” It’s a blog and underneath that, people can apply to be an icon on that site where you get to write. We get 75,000 new visitors every month to that site, to that blog. People want to write there, and we have to choose who can write and who cannot write. That’s one of the ways. Get yourself out in front of audiences that will recognize you once they see you associated with.
Years ago, one of my speaking mentors was John Childers. John gave a very simple piece of advice. He goes, “Get yourself photographed with famous people holding your book. They may not read it, but people will assume they have.” I’ve got hundreds of those pictures and what’s interesting is now, I’m the guy holding other people’s books. Raise your profile, get yourself on podcasts but if you’ve not done a minimum of 20, 30 podcasts, you’re not getting on my podcast because that podcast wants to know that you know what you’re doing. I offer training in it but most people don’t. I offer training in it for a nominal fee to be on my show. It doesn’t mean you’ll get on, but it means you’ll be trained in how to deliver a great podcast. If you don’t show and you don’t even want to do a training, then go do some crappy podcasters that have got five, ten listeners. That’s okay. Get your practice in. Raise your profile in any way, shape or form that you can. I want to help you get bigger gigs. When you speak, video everything. If you’re at Toastmasters, don’t let it look like Toastmasters. Shoot it at an angle that doesn’t make it look like Toastmasters. It’s because in there, there will be some fifteen seconds, twenty seconds, 30 seconds, maybe even as much as a minute that’s pure gold.
The rest of it might be garbage but grab those gold pieces and you’ll start watching the audience respond. You start threading those pieces together and use those. Put them up on social media. Get them out there, “I spoke in front of this audience and here’s a nugget I delivered. I wanted to share it with you,” so people can see that you can speak, that you do deliver impact. The other thing around it is to make your audience the heroes. One of the failings of speakers, it was my failing for many years, is to make yourself the hero. Make the audience your hero, make a person in the audience your hero. You’ll get much better gigs. When you get the gig, make the meeting planner the hero.When you're approaching somebody, you've got to know what it is you want and you’ve got to know what it is you're going to give. Click To Tweet
What you were saying before that can be applied by anyone is about leverage. Even if you may not have a list at all, you don’t have a podcast yet or you don’t have a blog that generates a lot of traffic, find those that can get you in front of your ideal clients. They might be other blogs, publications, associations, groups, speaking events. These are all people or organizations that can put you in front of your ideal clients even if you don’t have a lot of resources right now to do that yourself. It’s those examples that you shared that are very helpful for anyone who wants to get more leverage.
Let me give one little nugget in there that most people forget. The reason people will fail at the very advice I gave them is that they look needy. They look like, “Give me, give me, give me.”
Tell me more about that. Let’s get more specific for everyone. What do you mean?
I wrote a piece and it was why the most successful people won’t tell you their secrets. I talk about in there how the most generous people I know are the most successful people I know. It’s a contradiction in the headline and the reason is that this person said to me, “I want to be a speaker, can you give me some advice?” This is the short version of it. I said, “Take a shower.” She was uncomfortable with what I said and she said, “Any other advice?” I said, “Wear deodorant and get hot on stage.” Now she’s pissy and she says, “If you don’t want to tell me, don’t tell me.” I said, “I want to help you, but it’s not my job to work out what it is you need. That’s your job. Ask me for what you want, and I will give it to you. I’m happy to do that, but don’t waste my time trying to work out what it is that I’m supposed to deliver to you.”
As a consultant, that’s a different story but when you’re approaching somebody, you’ve got to know what it is you want, and you’ve got to know what it is you’re going to give. Here’s the thing. If you want to get away from looking needy, show up with something to offer. Don’t show up with your hand out to take, show up with your hand out to offer. What can you offer? How can you add value to the person you’re asking? This is where most successful people are enormously generous, but they don’t like being taken for granted. Most of them have climbed to the top, have done so. Most of them are very good, decent people and they’ve been BS on by some people and been taken advantage of. Don’t be one of those. Show up with generosity. When they help you, thank them. I don’t just mean, “Thank you so much,” I mean write to them, send them a physical note or a card.
Here’s the last piece of that and this is vitally important. Do not rip them off. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve assisted people who have literally taken what I said, transcribed it and called it their own. Do not rip off the people who are helping you. Don’t do that because I promise you your name will get bad very fast. If you’re going to copy something, give it credit, “I was on the call with Dov today and he helped me. Here’s one of the things he taught me. I realized that that’s an area that I can help you with. Maybe you’re not at the level where you could work with Dov, but maybe I can help you with this beginning,” but you give credit.
I have my sense of it, like your activities are driven and very closely connected to your purpose and that’s a lot of your work too. You run your podcast, you speak, you write, you’re on social media and it seems like nonstop. There are a lot of people who feel like they don’t have a clear purpose in their lives right now. They’re successful and I guess that sounds like a lot of the clients that you do work with, but they have achieved a lot. They may have come off of a corporate career and now they’re starting their business. Maybe they’ve been running their business for a period of time, but to get their consulting business to that next level, they feel like something’s missing. Without knowing someone’s specific situation, what have you found in terms of principles that can help people to, whether it’s getting out of the bed in the morning and feeling more energy and excitement or to feel like they’re driven more by their purpose that allows them to enjoy their work more and feel more productive and at higher levels of performance and happiness? What are some principles or ideas that you’ve found that when people consider and then act on makes a difference?If you want to get away from looking needy, show up with something to offer. Click To Tweet
The first thing we’ve all got to get to as starting block is that success and fulfillment are two different things. The trap of success is that we think it will be fulfilling. The reason it’s a trap is that it is fulfilling but only briefly. If you’re not finding yourself to be purpose-driven, if you don’t know why you’re doing it beyond paying the rent or buying a bigger car, buying a better house, whatever it might be, then you’re going to run out of energy very quickly. What has to happen is you have to find your purpose and I want to help everybody here and obviously this is very subjective.
Everybody’s purpose is everybody’s purpose and I can’t give you a generic answer to that, but I want to give you some solid place to start. Most people go looking for that purpose in their passion. Your passion and your purpose have vastly different things. I have an online course called Purpose and Impact. You can find out about it on my main website, FullMontyLeadership.com. One of the things that shocked everybody, the first time I ran that course was that your purpose and your passion are vastly different. Your passion is transitory. Many people go off and go, “I’m passionate about this,” and then they find out I’m not so passionate about it. They thought it was their purpose and they go, “I don’t have a purpose.” You have a purpose, but your passion has changed.
Here’s the way to think of it. Your passion is a vehicle. Your purpose is what gets transported in the vehicle when the vehicle runs out of fuel, which it will, you will find a new vehicle. When people say, “I know that this is my passion. I’m being passionate about it since I was fifteen,” and I say, “This is my analogy because I am who I am and I recommend you to be you because you can only do you well.” If you think about it, you’re a straight male when you were fifteen, what were you passionate about? At fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old, I’m sure you can answer that question, Michael.
I have two things going through my mind. One was sports because that was my life and the other was thinking about women.Do not rip off the people who are helping you. Click To Tweet
You’re a straight guy between fifteen and eighteen years old, that’s probably what you’re thinking about. My answer is if your passion is supposed to be your purpose, why don’t you work in gynecology? That would put you close to the thing you were passionate about as close as you could get. I know that’s not your career and it’s not mine and I don’t want it to be mine. Passion is transitory, purpose is not. Purpose is the one red thread that runs through all of your passions. I wrote a book on it. You can find it on Amazon. It’s called One Red Thread and in that is some great exercise to help you find your purpose. Your purpose is always running through your life, but here’s what I want you to get to. This is key for you to grasp.
It’s not only that it’s not your passion, but the place you’re most likely to find your purpose is in your pain. We, as a society, avoid looking into our pain, we’re afraid of it. However, as Joseph Campbell said, “If you want to find the treasure, you must enter into the dark cave, which you fear to enter.” That treasure is your purpose and the cave is the pain you don’t want to look at. When you look there, you will find your purpose. When you find your purpose, everything in your business, your consulting business, your speaking business, your business period will transform. We’ve done this work with a health technology company. They had no purpose and we were brought in and they’re all blown away at how aligned the executive team is in discovering this purpose of this organization totally fulfills what it is I, as an individual, I being one of the executives in the team, any of the executives in the team, needed my life. It meets my purpose because it addresses that pain I haven’t looked at. If you want to find your purpose, look at your pain.
This is such an important topic that in business people don’t spend enough time on. I know it’s something that my cousin and business partner, Sam and I, we talk a lot both, because it drives everything that we do as business people. If we’re not clear on why we’re doing what we’re doing, we tend to coast along and end up at a place that maybe we didn’t want to go to. Dov, I want to make sure that people know where they can get ahold of some of these resources, learn more about your work, read your articles, check out what you’re doing because I know that it will serve them well. Where’s the best place for people to go to learn more about your work and connect with you?
You can find out more about me on FullMontyLeadership.com. If you go there, you will find my blog, you’ll get full access to my podcast, which is Dov Baron’s Leadership and Loyalty Tips for Executives. It’s also in iTunes. You can find my blog there. You can find my products and my courses. If you go to FullMontyLeadership.com/gifts because you’re tuning into Michael’s show, we have gifts for you. You can go to that page and you can get access to some of those gifts. You can find me on YouTube, on LinkedIn by my name, on Twitter @TheDovBaron, on Instagram, @DovBaronLeadership. I’m also on Roku TV. I’m on three channels there, including my own channel. I’m on Binge TV and SmartFem Media. The easiest way is Google, Dov Baron.
I can certainly attest to Dov’s podcast being a guest on it myself. Dov, you run a fantastic podcast, very well structured, a lot that we can all learn from. Please keep that up. Thank you for coming on. I enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you. It was an honor. I’m pleased to serve you and serve the audience. I want to say one thing before I go, and that is please let Michael know that you appreciate this show. Write to him. The guy puts in the time and the energy and the resources to find great guests for you to add value to you. Don’t show up with your hand out, show up with your hand out to give. Give back, write to the guy, tell him what you’ve got out of this show. Tell him what you’ve got out of any of the shows and how you’re using it. You can write to me personally, [email protected] I want to hear from you. Tell me what you’ve got out of this and what you’re going to do with it, CC Michael. Let’s both have that conversation because we are here to serve you. You’ve got to appreciate that we’re doing that so that we know it’s worthwhile. Let him know. The guy’s doing a great service to you.
Thanks, Dov. I appreciate that. Take care.
- Dov Baron
- One Red Thread
- Leadership and Loyalty Tips for Executives
- Twitter @TheDovBaron
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