The Flawless Consulting Secret

Have you ever noticed that the harder you try to win the business, the less trusted you feel? What if the real power move in consulting isn’t persuasion, but indifference? Well, Peter Block has spent more than forty years redefining what it means to be a consultant. He’s the author of Flawless Consulting. He’s shaped generations of advisors who want to move beyond being vendors and become true partners. What makes Peter different is this: he never built his firm around scale. He built it around contribution, around trust, around asking clients one uncomfortable question: “What’s your contribution to the very thing you’re trying to change?”

In this episode, you’re going to learn how to structure sales conversations that build authority without boasting, how to handle resistant stakeholders without losing your grounding, and why implementation always begins with relationship. Because, in the end, consultants who win aren’t the ones who persuade better, they’re the ones who are willing to tell the truth, even if it costs them the deal.

In this episode you will learn:

• How to structure sales conversations that build authority without boasting.

• How to handle resistant stakeholders without losing your grounding.

• Why implementation and change always begin with the client relationship.

• Why consultants who win are willing to tell the truth, even if it costs them the deal.

• The power of asking clients: “What’s your contribution to the very thing you’re trying to change?”

Welcome to the Consulting Success podcast. I’m your host Michael Zipursky, and in this podcast, we’re going to dive deep into the world of elite consultants where you’re going to learn the strategies, tactics and mindset to grow a highly profitable and successful consulting business.

Before we dive into today’s episode. Are you ready to grow and take your consulting business to the next level? Many of the clients that we work with started as podcast listeners just like you, and a consistent theme they have shared with us is that they wished they had reached out sooner about our Clarity Coaching Program rather than waiting for that perfect time. If you’re interested in learning more about how we help consultants just like you, we’re offering a free, no pressure growth session call. On this call, we’re going to dive deep into your goals, challenges and situation and outline a plan that is tailor made just for you. We will also help you identify where you may be making costly and time consuming mistakes to ensure you’re benefiting from the proven methods and strategies to grow your consulting business. 

So don’t wait years to find clarity. If you’re committed and serious about reaching a new level of success in your consulting business, go ahead and schedule your free growth session. Get in touch today. Just visit Consulting Success – Grow to book your free call today.

Peter Block is an author and consultant whose work focuses on community building and civic engagement. A partner in Designed Learning, he offers workshops based on his books, which include the bestselling Flawless Consulting and Stewardship. Block’s core message is about creating workplaces and communities based on consent and connectedness, rather than control. He is a founder of the Common Good Collective and seeks to foster a world that reclaims our humanity.

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All right, Peter, welcome.

It’s good to be here, Michael. Thank you for letting me into your world.

Oh, it’s a pleasure to have you. And I thought we would get started by going back to the 1970s when you cofounded Block Petrella Weisbord. And later on you created your own firm, Design Learning. But could you share a little bit about what was that experience like in terms of being part of a partnership? And ultimately, why did you decide to strike out and become independent and start your own company later on?

Well, first I had to find something I knew how to do. And so it took me many years. I remember when it happened, I was in Atlanta running a team-building session, organization development. And I woke up in the middle of the night and had a huge insight. And I discovered that what I had done that day worked. And I was blown away by that. And then I also realized I found something I like doing. So that was very affirming.

And then, you know, story-wise, I was working for Exxon. My boss was Tony. And my old professor said, “Would you go to Madison Avenue? There’s a group I want you-” Harshe-Rotman and Druck was a high-end marketing firm on the 50th floor on Madison Avenue. So Tony and I get our best outfits, we go up there, he talks to us for an hour or two, got roosters all over the place, marketing. And he said, “We’d like you guys to start a division of our Harsh-Rotman and Druck, OD division organization.” Tony and I left, went to a restaurant and we said, “He really thinks we can do this work.” And I said, “Yes, he does, Tony.” And Tony said, “Why would we do it for him?” And that’s when we decided that maybe we would start something together. I never would have done it alone. And we had- Exxon knew we were leaving. They said, “Would you still work with us?” And we said, “Well, what is it? Figure out what you’re paying us now.” And it was seventy-five dollars a day. And we said, “We’ll take it.”

So that was client number one for the partnership.

Yep. That was cool. They kept us going. I wouldn’t have had the nerve without something in hand. And it scared me. I was frightened. I looked at an empty calendar and I said, “I’m doomed.” And then I realized living with that anxiety was the price I paid for having my own practice.

So after those years of running the partnership, what was the turning point for you, or that tipping point to decide you now want to go off on your own and create your own company?

I didn’t.

You didn’t?

No.

So tell me, tell me what happened.

We worked for twenty years, and I had taken a little break in the late seventies, and I realized I wanted to be able to predict my schedule. And with consulting, you’re on call. And I said, “The only way I can do that is if I do some training.” And so I said, “Guys, I’ll make the transition so I carry my weight, but I want to start a training company so that I know, looking out over the next month where I’m going to be.” I was involved with raising kids, etc. And so we, we all three of us owned both businesses.

Okay, I didn’t know that.

Yeah. And then eventually I liked the training, and then I figured out what to train. I had clients say, “Would you train our people, blah, etc.” And I said “Yes.” And so I just decided I needed structure in my life, and training had better margins than consulting. The consulting business, we figure about 50 percent for labor costs – training business is about 35, 33 percent. And so they were- Tony and Marv said, “Good idea, Peter.” And so for the next ten, fifteen years, I moved more and more into the training world.

So, I mean, you’ve now taken your company, thirty-five countries, I think five different languages, from what I’ve seen. Most consulting firm owners get to a point where they try and kind of, or they’re wrestling with this decision around how aggressively to scale or to grow their business. And are the trade-offs worth it or not? What was that experience like for you? From the outside, I mean, it seems like there could have maybe been a lot more intentional growth and expansion. But I’d love to hear that from you, Peter. How did you kind of view that balance of growing but doing it intentionally or scaling? Just walk us through that.

I love the work, I love the ideas. When I was forty, so after fifteen years, a publisher came, heard me give a talk. “Peter, would you write a book?” Eventually I did. But I never wanted to grow because I didn’t want to manage anything. I just wanted to make a living. For God’s sake, leave me alone. Marv and Tony felt- so, maximum we had six full-time people. And then if you need more people, you can bring in a fill. But I never wanted to, I never, it never mattered to me. I just, I loved the work we had. Marv joined us because I had pulled back. So we had three partners, each of us saw the world differently, spoke differently. And then we have three or four people that we knew. Some would do training, some would do consulting. And I just never thought growth was important to me because I saw a lot of big firms, and over time the really big firms got interested in change management – Arthur Anderson and Accenture and McKinsey – and we even helped train them on consulting skills. But it just wasn’t the life I wanted to lead. I don’t know, sometimes I felt it was a fault, a weakness.

[08:16] – The Counterintuitive Marketing Strategy of Letting Clients Choose You

And we never were marketing-oriented. We always beat up ourselves. I had a great marketing consultant when we started, and it was Curley Jones, worked for Exxon. He said, when the thing was getting started, he said, “Well, let me tell you. One is you’re looking for people looking for you, Peter. You’re not rich enough to change anybody’s mind and get them.” And the other thing he said was, “If you have people that aren’t working out, get rid of them fast. You can’t afford to carry people.” And so that was our philosophy, looking for people looking for us. And we had such doubts that we gathered clients together for a one-day focus group. And we asked them, “Why did you hire us?” And they said, “We hired you because you didn’t seem to care very much whether you got the job. So we trusted you.” And holy, I was shocked. I said, “I guess we did have a marketing strategy. It was one of indifference but being present, available.” And so I always treated sales as my job was to help people make a good decision, not to get the work.

I want to just go back for a moment. Peter, you talked about this almost this pull of, sound like many people around you saying, “Why not grow more?” right? You know, the status quo is to think about greater revenues and profits and growth. How did you maintain kind of that steadfast resolve or just the belief that, like, “Our goal is not to grow”? Oftentimes, you know, the environment around us really tries to pull us off of the path that maybe we, we feel is the right one. And, and then at some point we don’t, don’t even know which is the right path anymore. What was your experience like? I mean, what, what actually kept you going on that path?

The pressure is immense because the world wants to know what your annual revenue is. You ever sell the business, they want to know what your revenue is. Everybody’s proud of that. And, and I, I had two partners that were similar. I never could have done anything alone. And we just weren’t built- I wasn’t built that way. You know, I always felt as an individual, at some point you say to your parents, “I’m not the son you had in mind.” Eye contact, smile, silence. And whether they hear it or not doesn’t matter. We always felt that we’re not built that way. I wanted it. I hired a sales guy, Jim Maselko, and we never turned business down, but we never invested. The marketing we did was us being in the world. I learned how to give talks. Scared the hell out of me at first. I was terrified. I have to give a talk in October and in early May, I start getting worried about that October talk. And finally I got over it. I’m not going to be dynamic. I’m not charismatic. I’m not a motivational speaker. And I would start my keynotes that way. I said, “Expect to be motivated, inspired. Okay? You’re going to be sorely disappointed in what’s coming.” I did that for my own comfort. And then I could relax and have it. And I learned how to do it. I got good at it, but I had found my own way. And that was how the book helped create demand.

Your work is very clearly focused on relationships, on providing value first to, to those. You just mentioned it yourself right now, right?

[12:26] – How to Stop Acting Like a Vendor and Become a Trusted Advisor

The goal is not to win the business. The goal is to help the client or prospective client to make the right decision. What, what is a common mistake do you see consultants making that kind of leaves them being stuck almost like vendors and not true partners with those that they actually want to serve?

Not asking that question.

What’s the question?

Your question, “What do I have to do to stop being a vendor, treat myself as a commodity?” And when people ask me, “Where else have you worked?” I’ll tell them. But I never claim victory. And people say, “Oh, what results did you get?” I would say, “You’re having doubts about whether I’m really right for you, aren’t you?” And I learned how to trust that because they would say, “Yeah, I don’t know. You know, who are you?” I say, “Well, I understand your doubts,” period. And because the goal is to build trust, I always figured the sales call should be an example of the service that I’m going to offer. So I always figured from the first moment of contact, I’m on the job, consulting, listening, reframing, whatever style you’re doing. And people will decide based on their experience of being with you, not on your credentials, on your resume, all of that stuff. And I don’t know, you know, maybe that question is, it’s a right question, and there’s no real answer to it.

[14:12] – Why Clients Don’t Implement Recommendations—and How to Fix It

Well, I think you provide some perspectives or ideas that people should at least think about. So that’s a good starting point. I was also going to ask you, Peter, you’ve talked a lot about how consultants, their job is to get their expertise used, not just delivered. But many people find that organizations, they still resist kind of, you know, using what they’ve actually paid for. In your mind, is that a consulting problem? Is it a client problem? Is it just simply that organizations don’t like change? I mean, what’s, what’s going on?

It’s a consulting problem. It’s my fault. And our work is to deal with that. And I mean, the whole- We started consulting when the IT department came and said, “I know we’re right most of the time, and nobody does anything with our recommendations. Can you help us?” And then that’s when it occurred to us, after trying, you know, is that the relationship is a delivery system for your expertise in the moment. You can’t wait. “Thank you very much. We’ll talk about it.” No, “What doubts do you have?” And the more you help people express the doubts, the more they’re likely to act on what you tell. And I also began to think that really our job, rather than having a path that they asked for, is to present them with choices they didn’t know they had. And, you know, I was leaning on the people side of the business. And “What are we going to do with those people? What are we going to do with those people?” And in the middle, it’s the top they want to fix. It’s the top, the middle, and the bottom they want. Everybody wants to fix somebody else. And so I built a practice on one question. “Got it, got it, got it. And now what’s your contribution to the very thing that you’re concerned about?” And that’s, that opens the portal to implementation. If the client cannot see that they’re a player, an agent in creating the very thing they want to change, then it’ll just become a something they apply. It never gets internalized.

[16:42] – The Real Role of Relationships in Successful Consulting Engagements

And is that a real, a real issue in terms of, I mean, many organizations, I think especially what we’re seeing in this environment, they’re bringing consultants on, not just for recommendations, but now very often they actually want implementation. Right? They want things kind of done for them. I think you distinguish between engagement and installation. But if they just want the consultant or the consulting firm for the installation, but without having participation, is that where things break down?

I will take that job. But I have something other in mind, something else in mind about how we’re going to be together. And I will never let the client determine and decide how we’re going to work together. Now, I may not say that out loud, but that’s in my mind. And so I’ll treat them as a player. “What doubts do you have? What’s your role in this?” And you want us to come and be surrogate managers? Have you lost confidence in your people? Got it. Okay, let’s talk about that.” So I feel that’s just the presenting problem. I’ll take the job. It doesn’t mean I’ll do it. And maybe we’ll do it in a way that builds supports and looks at the gifts of people that were supposed to be shoring up who they’ve lost confidence in. Because we’re certainly not cheaper than the people they hire. We’re much more expensive. It’s just that- So I just treat that as a-

And with the client, what they say they want in the beginning, I know is never going to be useful, ever. That’s their understanding of what’s going on. If they were right about what’s going on, they’d know what to do. And it’s always those people up, down, middle, side. “We need a new system.” Okay? And if I’m a very technical consultant, if I’m an engineer, IT person, I still know that focusing on their relationship with each other is what will deliver the technology that they want. And so I act on that without asking their permission or in a meeting. And I’m presenting, I’m in the middle pitching, and I stop halfway through. I say, “You guys getting what you want?” And I say, “I’d like to hear from two or three of you about how you’re hearing what I’m saying.” “We didn’t come for that, Peter.” “I know you didn’t.” Pause. Eye contact. “I’d like a couple of you would just let me know how this is landing.” And I might say, “Well, how did you feel about what he just said?” And I would try to encourage them to have a dialogue together that they’re not used to having. They didn’t come for this. I know. That’s why I’m here. Now, I don’t say that. I can say it to you because it’s long, but I just feel that I know that the way they engage each other, no matter how technical they brought me in for, they’ll determine implementation. And if they don’t trust each other, they won’t know how to use anything we do, even though they’ll implement it. So I do that because I want it to work. I’d rather not take the job than fail. Some of that, you have to have some arrogance. “I didn’t, I’m not, I don’t come to deliver.” “Isn’t that kind of arrogant?” “Yes. Thank you.”

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[22:26] – How to Challenge Clients Without Damaging Trust

You’re asking questions, you’re being direct. Many people, when I say people, I mean many consultants, don’t do that. They, you know, they’re more like yes men or yes women or, you know, there’s, there’s, they’re doing what they think the client wants. Maybe because they’re scared of losing the job or ruffling feathers. Why do you believe that more people are not as direct or don’t take the approach that you’re just referring to which in some ways it just seems like common sense. It seems like it’s the right thing to do if you really care about the client, that why wouldn’t you challenge them, why wouldn’t you push back? But so often people don’t do that. What do you think’s going on there?

What I do know is that if I’m getting angry, I stop. So the tone, the way I push back, if I’m angry, I always say I can tell when I’m angry. I hear it in my voice. I think if I said it one more time, a little more clearly and slowly, maybe they would get the point. When I found myself angry, I said, “Excuse me, I have to go to the restroom,” because it’s not useful. And so even the word “pushback” is a little more contentious. So I would ask them the question, “So do you have any sense of what your contribution to the problem is?” Like that? “So, what’s your role in creating this mess?”

Right.

And then if they say, “I, I don’t know what you’re talking about,” I’d say- I, you know, you’re just as kind and direct as you can be. And if they, you try three times, if they don’t want to answer, then you let it go. “What’s your contribution to what’s going on here?” “So this is not my issue. Don’t put this on me.” I said, “I get you. I’m not putting it on you. But I wondered if you were contributing, what form it would take.” “Don’t use that questioning crap with me. You sound like my therapist, for God’s sake.” And then I say to myself, “Let it go.”

So how do you deal with that situation when you’re talking to a client or a group of people inside of an organization where you’re approaching it in a level-headed way, you’re asking the direct questions, you’re coming from a place of, of really wanting to serve. But there’s either one or multiple people that are really trying to derail. They’re not willing to go down that path with you. How do you handle that? I mean, how do you move things forward?

I used to give them extra attention. I used to try to get them on board. And then I realized I want to work with the people that want to do something. And so they complain, “This is crap. This is baloney. This is just the kind of thing I thought we shouldn’t do.” “Got it. Thank you.” When I looked at somebody, I said, “John, what do you, how do you think we should?” And I try to teach them how to deal with the asshole. Using a technical term. And, and, and so each time you’re there, you’re making that moment, that meeting, that talk, that, and constructing in a way that it builds trust. It’s focused on the content and the relationship because I know if they aren’t able to be more authentic with each other, they can’t use what they paid me to deliver.

[26:11] – Qualification Questions That Identify the Right Consulting Clients

Do you ask any specific questions or go through some sort of a process before the engagement begins, before they’ve, you know, signed the agreement to qualify or disqualify, that somebody will in fact, you know, have a much higher likelihood of being the right fit?

Yes, I’ve learned, I’ve collected questions over the years and I find ones that are impossible to defend against.

I’d love to hear them.

One is, “What’s the crossroads you’re at at this stage of the game?” And in doing that, I’m asking them as if they have a choice. I don’t care if they answer it. The question will work on them. I would say, “What doubts do you have that anything good’s going to happen