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Episode #170
Nick Jankel

Enhance Your & Your Client's Lives Using Transformational Leadership

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We all have the potential to change our lives better than it is now. But, admittedly, many of us need guidance on how to achieve that. In this episode, Nick Jankel shows you the power of transformational leadership. He joins Michael Zipursky to tell us all about it with his experiences and the wisdom gained through that as a leadership coach, speaker, and consultant. He also shares his own start building an innovation agency and how he was able to reach out to well-known organizations. Nick then talks about how a book is the 21st-century business card, taking us into his own writing process, story structure, and more. Join him in today’s show to see how you can enhance your and your client’s lives.

I’m here with Nick Jankel. Welcome.

How are you doing?

It’s great to have you on. You are a leadership coach, speaker and consultant. You’ve worked with organizations like HSBC, Walmart, Unilever, Lego, Novartis, and a whole bunch of other well-known brand names. Going back to when you were 24, you cofounded a company and you had very well-known clients like Disney, Diageo, BBC, Microsoft, and a whole bunch of others. Being young and “inexperienced” didn’t hold you back. Take us to that time when you’re 24, what were you doing? What was the company? Talk a little bit more about that. How do you go about landing such well-known names?

There was a moment in time where we launched this business and it wasn’t a massive strategic vision of how to build a business in this space. It just happened. It was 1999 when the world was a bit crazy for technologically-driven ideas. Dot-com stuff was the main. Since I had a very amazing business partner, our relative youth wasn’t a problem. In fact, it was a benefit because we were all over the moment, but we did have to catch up very quickly. I was working in an ad agency as was he and I was a strategist so I was already a consultant. In a way that the company couldn’t monetize it because the ad agency doesn’t charge for the consulting piece that gives it away for free or did anyway in those days.

We were being approached by lots of dot-coms saying, “We’ve got $20 million. Can you do us PlayStation, Wonderbra and Nike?” which are all clients I was working on. The agent did not know how to deal with these people. They didn’t have a customer proposition, brief and a clear idea of that brand. They didn’t have a brand architecture. They didn’t have anything, just some money, even only a vague idea often, and some people running around in a warehouse pretending they’re busy. We went, “We should be creating the agency of the future, which we charge for the thinking, the ideas, the creative strategy and then you execute neutrally across if it’s PR or whatever.” This is way ahead of this time because that’s now more of a thing but still not even really a thing.

Ideas aren't really everything. It's the journey that you go on with people that they're really paying for. Click To Tweet

Since it was a technology, it was an area that people thought we could get away with it. The agency didn’t invest in us but it gave us some space and some computers which gave us a bit of breathing room and a bit of salary. That was nice little spaciousness but it soon became very clear that one of the big agency networks who own half the world, they thought we were a digital agency, which they wanted us to be, but we weren’t that. We knew we were a strategy consultancy like McKinsey but a creative strategy. It’s an insight-driven, creative, innovative strategy for companies. Then the dot-com bust happened, and we had to pivot like a ballerina and find a client-base. We hit up big companies who wanted innovation. We forged ourselves as the innovation industry forged itself. We were only one of a handful of innovation consultancies and we learned a hell of a lot along the way. Every day was endless learnings. It still is now, but definitely then.

You mentioned that you were reaching out to well-known organizations. What gave you the confidence to do that? How did you do that? Was it as simple as sending an email and saying, “We’ve worked at this agency and we can help you be more innovative in this new digital world?” Walk us through it. What was going on? What were you doing to get in front of those people?

There was a bit of that. We had a lot of hutzpah, so that’s something that is clear. We didn’t have much to lose and think about, so we didn’t have a mortgage and kids. That opened up a potential for, “Let’s give it a go.” There was nothing to lose. That’s a big thing to think about. We hammered on a lot of doors and mostly got noes, which is the general rule. Anyway, it still is. We learn a lot about things like timing particularly with innovation companies. If they’re not ready, they’re not ready. You can’t make them ready. You can encourage and tell and whatever. The actual big win that happened, our first big win came from loitering in LA at the E3 video game show.

My business partner and I, at that time, have done the brand strategy and launching of PlayStation 2. We went over to Microsoft and said, “You guys have no idea what you’re doing. We do.” I think they probably just paid us to not go anywhere else at the time. I don’t think I kid myself as we were some genius, but it was a lucky moment, a lucky timing and a lot of power work and hutzpah. I remember hanging outside the store waiting for the main guy to show up, and we buttonholed him. We were quite good and then they got us in for the global version of that.

Did you literally walk up and say, “You have no idea what you’re doing, we can help you?”

CSP 170 | Transformational Leadership


Obviously, not like that. We said, “We launched the PlayStation 2 in Europe. We’ve spent two years doing market research on the future of this industry. You don’t want to do a PlayStation. You can’t do a PlayStation, you can’t outplay PlayStation. You’ve got to find something else. We’d love to work with you.” One of the great learnings I’ve always had is relentless enthusiasm and passion for what you do is often a huge part of the win.

What does that mean? Make that very tangible. How can someone bring that into their world? What actions could they take? What mindsets should they adopt to benefit from that statement you used later on?

The first thing is you can’t fake it. If you’re in a consulting space where you don’t feel a huge amount of enthusiasm for the actual thing that you consult on, and the industries and companies that you work with, then you can’t click the switch. The client has to feel that you genuinely are excited to work with them. There’s gratitude there. You’re kowtowing on the floor but you’re going, “We would love to work with you. I don’t know how we’re going to do it and what project it is, but we’re here.” At the same time, you can’t be needy so you’ve got to find this place of, “We’re super excited. You give us a call and we’d be there. We’re on the phone ready for you.”

That’s from an ad agency background, which is a useful way coming into this space because you’re always there ready to please, “We’ll do whatever it takes,” without being like, “If we don’t get you, I’m going to shoot myself or our business is bankrupt.” That’s still something I take with me. There’s a deeper nuance of this which is seeing something that this company, brand or business organization could be. They can’t fully see themselves being in that space when you talk to them, and then trying to give them an idea of what possibility could be like for them given that they’re up against pressure, KPIs, relentless planning cycles, 3,000 emails a day, whatever the reality is for a mid to senior-level manager in a Global 500 company.

It’s not all of it. Part of it is enthusiasm and what we call the innovation possibility spaces. They feel when you’re around. That’s the part of what you say and the hard part that’s how you are. This works better if you’re in the more creative elements of consulting, but it still works in any area, enthusiasm and relentlessness. You have to be able to email someone 7, 10 or 15 times in over 2 or 3 years, and see people come off your mailing list and ask you quite rude ways to get off. You’re going to have to go through all that stuff and still brush it off and be as enthusiastic as you are the first day you started. That’s important. There’s a whole deeper part of that, which is how you stay that resilient and that positive. Given that I’m into this career for many years, I’m still getting more noes than yeses. I’m still getting quite rude, assertive and ignoring me.

If you're a newbie, entrepreneurial coaching is extremely useful. Click To Tweet

What do you do when that happens because every consultant faces that? What a lot of people will do is when they encounter that, even before or believe that they will, they don’t take that action? Or if they’ve started to take that action and they’re getting that a response where it’s not positive or whether they’re hearing crickets for a period of time, they tend to do less. You’re saying, “Don’t do less, do more, keep it up and be consistent.” Share a little bit more of your experiences. Have there been any big insights or lessons that people could learn from what you’ve gone through that?

I have many. I’ve written a few books but I often joke that my bestseller would be How Not To Start And Run The Business because I’ve made every possible mistake you could make times three and three times over. In terms of that specific thing around unstoppability, it’s something you have to cultivate, it doesn’t just come to you. There are many things I could say to that but one of the things I have to say is I dip back into my purpose. I’m here for a bigger reason than winning some shekels and feeling good about getting another big brand on my board here.

If that particular person doesn’t see that or that moment doesn’t feel it, often it’s not personal. One of the things you’ve got to remember is it’s almost never personal. They’re just busy. They haven’t emailed you back three times not because they hate you, but because they don’t even think you’re brilliant or great, they just don’t have the capacity. Sometimes I email someone and I’m like, “I’m going to email them again,” and I get perfect timing like, “Can we have a call tomorrow?” I also tap into a rhythm thing. If I’m on a day where I’m not feeling it myself, I’m not going to force myself even though I had on my agenda to write an email. I’m not going to force myself to write it. I’ll put it back a couple of days. I don’t want to write from a place that isn’t the zingy, the zizzy and got my mojo without faking it. I’m not trying to be inauthentically amazing all the time because I also have moments of doubt, sadness, grief and challenge.

Is your approach then to be very personalized and very targeted when you reach out to people, or are you putting a message in front of a larger number of people that are still targeted to who you believe is your ideal client but you’re not necessarily personalizing every single message or there are some templates in there? How do you approach that?

I have three segments. We have a general newsletter segment and we’ll check out who’s on it. Some of those people come from my coaching, transformation and meditation stuff, so I have no idea who was on it or whether there’s any value at all. I’ve got a list of people who I send out actual emails and not newsletters that come from my email address but they are templated. I’m happy for people to know that it still says, “Dear John,” because it’s got no mail merge function. There are people with who I tend to do one-to-one every now and again like, “How are you doing?” I’m merging those more back into that mail merge version. I’ve sent out an email for this new leadership program to my top 200 C-Suite people I’ve worked with. People will write back and I then write back immediately but with less formal structure. Then the next week, I will email out to the same list more of an afterthought email like, “Are you interested? I’m just checking in, Nick,” even though they may know it’s templated.

CSP 170 | Transformational Leadership


We’re all grownups now. Everything has to feel personalized. If I had the time, I would do a, “Dear John, how’s it going at X? I see you in the news.” We’re shifting the model away from working into companies directly to buy us, to try and bring the people we want to come to me into our programs. I haven’t succeeded in that yet. We’re in the middle of a pivot, but I do run a second consulting business, which is very much standard. We need a few on the ground to get out of bed. That we still do very much personalized, but then we’re talking about 50 people.

You mentioned that one of the big things that have been beneficial for you especially in the early days and still now is the idea of sharing, providing or delivering new ideas to companies that they may not even see themselves, but adding a lot of value and saying, “Here’s something innovative that could work well for you.” How do you strike that balance? How do you think about giving away that idea? A lot of us, especially early-stage consultants are those that might have a bit of what I would call a bit of a scarcity mindset or that might have where they’re concerned about giving away too much. Does such a thing exist in your mind about giving away too much? What have you found to work best when it comes to sharing new ideas that can help you to generate business but not giving away “too much?”

I would email someone and say, “I think there’s a business model for you in coffee service delivery. Do you want to do a project?” That’s not the thing I would do. I’d say, “Your company is amazing and ambitious.” I wanted two consulting businesses. One is in leadership and one is in sustainability. I’m putting all my innovation stuff into that, so it’s got a sustainability wrapper on it. We will then say things like, “Your industry is amazing but also under a lot of headwinds…” We will give away a lot. We’ll send out relentless essays, blogs and keynote slides, but you won’t get all the keynote slides and you’re not going to get deck-upon-deck and all the stuff that you can take and then use. You’re not going to get all of it. Also realizing the idea isn’t everything. It’s the journey that you need to go on with people that they’re paying for. Ideas are cheap. Anyone can have an idea for Uber but not anyone can build an Uber. I’ve got over myself a bit on the preciousness that I used to have, and I’m more generous than I used to be. My models also changed more.

What I’m hearing you say, Nick, and this is very aligned with the way that we approach things too is giving a tremendous amount of value, content and ideas to people consistently. Where people get the greatest value is not from an idea or information, it’s about taking the right actions. For them to take the right actions, that’s where working with you or in our case, when people come into our coaching program, we’re working specifically on where they are, their situation and then dialing in the right strategies or the right steps. That’s where the results come up, and that’s what you’re saying.

There are at least three different types of consulting in the spaces that I work in. It’s important for them to know which one you want to be in, and I’ve been in all of them.

Your success as a business will depend on how much you speak. Click To Tweet

Talk about what those three are that you think.

I don’t know how to say this politely, but I think that you’ve got the, “We are the world leaders or masters of the universe in this area, you need us to say yes to ideas, so that everyone feels good about it.” That’s the big strategy houses. They don’t always come up with the idea but if the clients say, “McKinsey said we should do this,” they’re coming to you to be the big swinging Kahuna Burger of that sectoral area. I don’t do that anymore, it’s not my interest. I do keynote speaking in that space but then it’s buying me for a keynote, and I’ll tell you about my vision of the future of healthcare or whatever. I don’t want to be your guy to blame that on if you try those.

Then you’ve got what I call the body shopping type consultancy, which they don’t have the bandwidth, the Moxie to do it themselves, can’t be bothered, having problems with resourcing, so they’ll hire someone in and then you’re selling 300 days a year. I don’t do that either anymore. You’ve got what I do, which is process facilitation and holding space for people. It’s the hardest type and the most rewarding because they have the ideas and they do it all themselves anyway so you’re holding them. We’re definitely still learning how to charge for that because it’s not always obvious. Sometimes, you have to be generous and have boundaries at the same time.

It reminds me of parenting. I want my kids to have loads of my time, goodness and juice but there’s a boundary, “I’m not going into my bedroom or I don’t want to talk to you for an hour because daddy needs to sleep if you want me to come and be back here again later.” Obviously, I’m not saying that to a client but what I’m saying is like, “We’ll give you this.” In our contracts, we will push the dollar you give us as much as we can. If scope creep starts to happen, we’re now doing totally different stuff and you want five iterations of the same deck because everyone is all jerky and jittery, then we’re going to have to charge you for that, and we’re expensive so beware.

I’ve also learned to tell them that way before we’re going to start charging so they have the choice to go like, “We don’t have any more budget, so we’re going to turn off the tap.” The more clarity you bring, the more you foresee what they are going to overspend and where they’re going to be disappointed. I’ve had quite a few disappointments. They loved the work but they didn’t like the bill when it came. Often because they haven’t budgeted enough for their big ambitious stuff particularly in HR where everyone thinks you can get away with doing something for £2.50, and it’s going to be brilliant.

CSP 170 | Transformational Leadership


In 2005, you started your company, Switch On, which is a leadership and personal development firm with a Cofounder, Alison. Tell us about the decision as to why you decided to partner in that business as opposed to doing something in that space by yourself?

I’ve had three business partners in my life. Given a choice, I would always have a business partner. You don’t always have that choice. If they’re not there, there’s no one there to be a business partner with. In terms of five, Alison was not in my world. She came into the business in 2010. I started it with another guy and then we got divorced. I’ve had three business partners, two divorces, and they were both quite brutal divorces. I will say that both took a lot of pain and work to get to a place of almost friendship and that kind of way. I love having a business partner because of many reasons. When I’m like, “I can’t do this. This too much,” hopefully there’s like, “Come on, just hammer away and we’ll go another five doors.” When they’re in, you’re like, “We can do this.” Now, I’ve got two business partners in two different companies. It’s amazing and also unbelievably hard work to collaborate elegantly with a business partner.

Talk a little bit more about that, Nick, and take us back to the two “divorces” that you had with the business partners. What went wrong that you’re able to share? What do you learn from that experience that looking back, you would say, “Now that I know about that, I would do things differently?”

The first partnership was the innovation agency, and we didn’t have a huge purpose ambition at the beginning. We weren’t clear. We pivoted, moved and we were growing up ourselves. He was a few years older than me. We’re both in our twenties. When the end came, we ended up at our amazing peak, and we ended it because I got burnt out. In my burnout time off, I reflected and realized this wasn’t the business I wanted to spend the rest of my life building. If it wasn’t, then I shouldn’t be doing it now.

I broke the agreement by saying, “I’m out. I’m out in this way because I’m done and I never wanted to help rich companies become richer.” I always wanted to be a doctor. I did medical training so I need to go work out on, “I’ll do what I want to do but it probably isn’t this.” I’m owning it fully. I broke the agreement that we were going to do this until whenever, but we did have that agreement. It was breached in agreement. Someone was going to buy us and we missed out on the big paycheck. There was a couple of financial finagling between, and that was the bit that most obviously stuck.

A book is the 21st-century business card. Click To Tweet

What’s the lesson there, Nick? Would it be to have a shareholders’ agreement? Would it be to make sure that the things are documented?

The shareholders’ agreement is really good but don’t get stuck on it at the beginning because you don’t even know what business you’re going to be in at the beginning. A good shareholders’ agreement takes days of time to design. You probably both have to pay a lawyer, all three of you or whatever there is. I wouldn’t do it at the beginning, but I definitely would do it when you get to a point in maturity. More often, communication about the long-range and more about, “If things go wrong, where are we going to be? What’s the buyout? Is there a buyout?” Some of that stuff you can’t predict, so there’s no point having a shareholders’ agreement because you don’t know if you’re going to have 50 staff, 5 staff, no staff, 20 clients in order to book from here until doomsday. I’ve had coaching the whole time through entrepreneurial life as a consultant.

You were out investing in a coach, is that what you mean?

Having a coach. Even with my wife, Alison, who we co-run the business, we have a woman who’s a trained relationship coach and family systems therapist. We use her for whether it’s husband-wife stuff or business stuff. That’s intertwined, there’s no way to point you. We see her every 6 to 12 weeks, depending on where we’re at to help us unblock stuff. I would highly invest in that particularly if you’re a newbie, entrepreneurial coaching is extremely useful. It helps you with confidence, be ballsy and set crazy goals, but also it helps tidy up your wounds and deal with the pain of rapid growth.

Our coach said to us at the very beginning, “Your success as a business will depend on how much you talk to each other.” That got me realizing we need to speak, not just in the office but afterwards like, “Where are you at now? What’s going on? What’s that message?” I’m trying to do that now with both my business partners who both obviously do things without me because they’re full-time on their business. My newer business partner in the sustainability business is not used to that level of conversation and the openness of it in a business environment like the personal stuff like, “I’m feeling a bit wounded about that. I’m a bit triggered by that, or something is coming up from something from my past,” whatever version of that people have got. She’s learning that to be a good business partner in a fast-moving business.

CSP 170 | Transformational Leadership


We’re doing a virtual innovation workshop for a very large company which we’ve never run before for them. We’ve got stuff to talk about, there’s stuff to be aligned on and little bits. Whereas in the old days, you’d sit there and go, “Go through every slide. Let’s move that here.” I’m also trying to catch up on years of not working together and we’re both quite different. Relentless talking over communication. One of the things I tell my clients, “It’s hard to over-communicate.” The number of assumptions that get built into a simple conversation or a Slack message, you’re like, “You mentioned that thing from that bit of the Dropbox.” A two-second call would have solved that. One of the tips I will give people is the asymmetrical WhatsApp messages, as in you leave a message and when they have time, they then listen and leave a message later on. You might have some conversations about some boundaries around 24 hours or 12 hours or whatever, so that you’re not always on the phone and yammering in people’s faces when people are tired or got their own stuff to do. You’re constantly looping back on some of these assumptions, “Did you like that call? I don’t know if you’d like it. I felt good about it.”

You are a visiting lecturer, you speak, you write books and you publish other content, but out of everything that you’re doing, when it comes to your consulting, leadership offerings, driving business and driving revenue, what would you say has the biggest impact? If you could choose one area to focus on to drive more sales, revenue and growth of the business, what would be the one area that you would lean into?

I’m going to be annoying and say that these days, if you want to be that third type of consultant where you’re bringing people into a new reality and whatever that is, you have to do all. You have to be doing keynotes, be at conferences, writing Medium posts, write some thought leadership PDFs or whatever they are trying to make them simpler than they used to be that don’t have to be so big anymore. You’ve got to pass some memes, be on Facebook or whatever version of that. Ultimately, if you want to be good, you have to have a book. One of my speakers bureau chief calls it the 21st-century business card.

The book sales don’t mean deadly to me. They don’t even feature on my P&L. More people read them, it’s not even the point of them. The point for me of a book is twofold. My new book is about transformational leadership. By saying that, people know that I might be rubbish, but at least I’m good at that topic. It’s an area you can come to me for and you may never read the book. That’s one thing. Secondly, it’s more important to me. By writing a book, I do a PhD in the subject. I make myself as rigorous as possible by writing the book.

One of the things I’ve always been allergic to is management and business consultants who use bits of neuroscience that were wrongly quoted from Fox News or from something, “That’s derivative from someone that no one even knows where this left brain, right brain came from. It’s certainly not in neuroscience so…” By writing the book, you force yourself to know what the hell you’re talking about, whereas it’s important to me because I’ve always led a career where I know what I’m talking about but I’ve never done it before. I’m always on the edge of my capacities. I also set my class like, “I don’t know what it’s like to innovate in this business because I’ve never done it before. I’ve got a great process, I’ve got some great tools, they’ve worked on so far. I don’t know if I can pull off a virtual innovation program for a large company without having a workshop space and Post-It notes, but I’ll damn as well do my best to put it off.

Content is not king; context is, especially in engaging people. Click To Tweet

That’s an important point, I don’t want to gloss over that. A lot of people might be in a similar situation where they believe that they can help the clients, but maybe they haven’t done exactly what the client is looking for or they believe that they can help somebody in a different industry that they’ve never worked in before. What would you say to them? What’s been your experience when you’re entering a new industry where you have absolutely no experience? Do you believe that you can help but they don’t know that you can and you don’t have the proof that you can? How have you navigated that?

We’d have to build up some proof points but they’d have to be proof. There’s a difference. All you’re doing is telling a story. I’ve gone into storytelling because I’ve realized that it’s the missing link for a lot of this stuff. If a client doesn’t buy your proposal presentation or whatever, it’s easy to blame them, it’s much harder to go, “I didn’t tell the right story,” and keep learning. “How come I send an email if I didn’t even have a connection thing at the beginning? Am I mad? I even teach this to people but I didn’t do it myself.” You’ve got to create proof points. They have to have the proof points like, “I’m a McKinsey. We’ve spent the last years working on your three competitors.” It doesn’t have to be like that. The right testimonials, a couple of logos and a mini case study even if you have to push the boundaries of truth. You’re not lying but you’re rewriting the case study that on the way in, it wasn’t that. On the way out, you realize it was a learning program for X, Y and Z.

I would urge you never to lie, but you are pushing the narrative to the point without spin. You are reframing what you do to create trust, connection and credibility. The key to all of it is, “At the edge of my capacities, I still know I can pull it off.” Even if it means working two weekends in a row, I know I’ve got the tools and the map, but I have done insane amounts of work on the map. What I mean by the map is how it all fits together? How do purpose, agility and agile processes fit? I don’t know everything about agile processes, for example, but when a new thing pops up in the consulting world, I will go on a little deep dive to work out on how it fits in with what I do, where are its weaknesses. I have to have an opinion on it, enough to know if it’s right or wrong.

I’m constantly building my maps. If anyone plays Fortnite, on the map, there are little question marks where you haven’t been in yet. I’m constantly finding my question marks and going, “Six Sigma, what the hell is that? Kaizen, that’s going to the old Japanese deep dive,” whatever it is. Even though I only do one tiny bit of it, I need to have the map because that’s the bit that gives me confidence in myself. I can go and talk to someone and there’s very little they can tell me that I haven’t already deep-dived on.

We’ve seen this in our own business as well once. We start to embrace telling our story better, being more vulnerable, more open and how powerful that was, it wasn’t comfortable at the beginning because we never thought about it. What’s your go-to resource if someone said, “I’d like to learn more about storytelling, Nick, and how that might benefit my business?” Is there a book or anything that you’ve come upon that you think would be of great value for people as a starting point to learn more about storytelling?

I have a storytelling structure that I’ve created for this very point. I’m trying to think if I’ve ever put it out on an article or anything. I’ve read twenty books on storytelling to go out and find the one that speaks to you. They all say the same thing. I’ll give you the biggest tip I’ve got of storytelling. Context is more important than content. You’re going to come to your call to action, you’re going to come to your brilliant product service or course, whatever. If you don’t give people the context, they will have no idea why it’s so brilliant and genius. People who don’t like giving context, you have to think about it, you have to structure it right. It’s hard to lay out the context that then goes, “This program is so good.” They’ll go, “It is because you’ve given me all this context about why leadership, innovation and agile.” That’s unbelievably important.

Content is not king, context is king in engaging people. Even before the context, you’ve got to connect with them. I’m watching a show which is by the woman who wrote Girls. It’s called Industry. It’s about working in a big investment bank in London. This woman gives this junior grad a little sound timer and says, “You can’t talk about the pitch for whatever asset you’re trying to sell until the time has run out. The whole first bit has to be talking about golf, football, your wife and your husband.” It’s a little bit like that for all storytelling. Even when I do a keynote, I can feel some of the more masculine, get-crap- done clients wanting me to get onto the content, what’s the genius that’s going to drop into our company is going to unlock transformation.

I spend the first fifteen minutes to every keynote talking a little bit about my journey and the world in general, so that when I come for the sucker punch and the big stuff, they’re in the right mind world, the right frame and then I pop in. If you go straight to the bit, people often walk around going, “He seemed good. She seems smart. I like them.” They have no idea why they think that’s such a genius and then they walk away, they don’t buy from you. That’s a tough lesson because it takes design, rethinking about, reordering slides twenty times, and rewriting your LinkedIn profile 100 times. I still write mine every three months. I’m not saying religiously but roughly every three months. I realize it’s totally out-of-date of my own story of myself. I rewrite it with who I am now, and I haven’t changed obviously, but my narrative about how all these dots come together make more sense to me every day that I’m living in this life.

Nick, thank you for coming on. I want to make sure that people can learn more about you, your work, and tap into that knowledge in an even deeper way. Where’s the best place for them to go to learn more? I know you have a couple of different businesses, where should they start?

If you’re interested in leadership, personal change and transformation, and if you want to go straight into the leadership bits. If you’re interested in the sustainability purpose and regenerative business piece of the company, it’s called FutureMakers. It’s, They both have the same underlying theory but they manifest in quite different ways. I’m on all the social channels, @SwitchOnNow if you search for that on Facebook and Instagram.

Nick, thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

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