How Listening Built This 7-Figure Business

What if the reason your consulting business hasn’t grown isn’t because you lack the perfect strategy, but because you need to learn how to hold better conversations?

In this episode, I’m joined by Manal Sayid, a facilitator and consultant who quietly built a seven-figure practice by helping leaders navigate the conversations most people avoid. Manal didn’t start in consulting. She started in non profit HR, volunteered on a suicide prevention line for nearly a decade, and learned at a very human level how trust is built when people feel heard.

In this episode you will learn:

• Why relationship-building without an agenda can outperform traditional business development.

• How deep listening skills, honed on a suicide prevention line, can build a 7-figure practice.

• How being braver with clients leads to more respect, better work, and stronger outcomes.

• The importance of trust, values, and client qualification in attracting the right clients.

• What it really takes to facilitate change when there’s tension, power dynamics, or uncertainty in the room.

• How to turn volunteer passion projects into a pipeline for paid consulting work.

Welcome to the Consulting Success podcast. I’m your host Michael Zipursky, and in this podcast, we’re going to dive deep into the world of elite consultants where you’re going to learn the strategies, tactics and mindset to grow a highly profitable and successful consulting business.

Before we dive into today’s episode. Are you ready to grow and take your consulting business to the next level? Many of the clients that we work with started as podcast listeners just like you, and a consistent theme they have shared with us is that they wished they had reached out sooner about our Clarity Coaching Program rather than waiting for that perfect time. If you’re interested in learning more about how we help consultants just like you, we’re offering a free, no pressure growth session call. On this call, we’re going to dive deep into your goals, challenges and situation and outline a plan that is tailor made just for you. We will also help you identify where you may be making costly and time consuming mistakes to ensure you’re benefiting from the proven methods and strategies to grow your consulting business. 

So don’t wait years to find clarity. If you’re committed and serious about reaching a new level of success in your consulting business, go ahead and schedule your free growth session. Get in touch today. Just visit Consulting Success – Grow to book your free call today.

Manal Sayid, MBA, is a facilitator and consultant with over a decade of experience in business and change management. Specializing in strategic planning and human-centered participatory approaches, she serves as the North American Regional Director for the International Association of Facilitators (IAF). Manal is also a Board member of the Technology of Participation (ToP) Network, advancing inclusive decision-making methods. Grounded in authenticity and community empowerment, her transformative work helps diverse stakeholders navigate complexity to achieve meaningful social change.

Connect with Manal Sayid

Discover more about Sayid Consulting

Manal, welcome.

Thank you, Michael. Glad to be here.

I’m very excited to have you here. So, Manal, you’ve built a seven-figure practice by doing great work for your clients. And we’re going to unpack that in a lot more detail. But before we do, I want to kind of start at the beginning of your journey. And I’d love to hear about how do you get into the field of doing facilitation work with organizations?

Sure, Michael. I’m trying to kind of scale back to where it all began. So I used to work at a nonprofit organization, and in that nonprofit organization, during the lunch hours, I worked in HR as an HR coordinator. And anyone who works in the sector knows that there aren’t funds allocated for operational elements like HR. So you just kind of have autonomy, a lot of autonomy. And so one of the areas that I was really passionate about at the time was mental health and burnout. And so as an HR coordinator and the only person working in HR, I started kind of having these lunchtime workshops. And I didn’t know that there was such a thing as a facilitator, but it was essentially like just a space for employees and staff to come together and talk about things that aren’t normally talked about. And so that really gained a lot of traction.

And so I volunteered quite a lot at the Toronto Public Library at the time. And so I offered these workshops to a different crowd, mostly seniors. And it was to talk about the same types of things: mental health, burnout. And it was kind of when I was getting into self-care, and so a lot of these seniors really appreciated kind of having these actionable things that they can do to improve their well-being and mostly their mental well-being. And so I started offering these at different branches of the Toronto Public Library on evenings and weekends. And it was just volunteer basis.

Yeah. And why offer that to- It sounds like you didn’t envision that these people would be people that you would work with directly or would somehow financially benefit you. Maybe you did. You can share that. But I’m wondering, why spend your time making this available to people that maybe it didn’t necessarily connect directly to your career? Was there something inside of you that really resonated with the idea of supporting seniors? Just make that connection for us.

[03:50] – How Deep Listening Became a Consulting Superpower

You’re going really deep now, Michael. But yeah, before that, I actually volunteered at the distress center and the suicide prevention line, and it started in Ottawa. So I actually did that for almost eight years. And so this was a place where folks call in. And a lot of the times when I mention this, people think that it is people who are at the edge of a cliff about to jump off. But it’s actually regular everyday folks that have nine-to-five jobs that are dealing with the stressors of life: financial stressors, marital relationship, so it’s folks from all walks of life.

And so I kind of gained this insight that a lot of the issues that we hold internally are actually quite universal. And so when I talk, right now, when I talk about a lot of kind of stigmatized topics, some folks might wince. But I just know because of my eight years of experience that there are folks that are afraid to talk about these topics but are sitting and dealing with it. And so that was where my interest came. And I started that volunteer venture at a time where I was at a pretty low point. And so throughout the course of the years, I kind of gained the skills to be a great listener.

So a lot of the times, Michael, like folks call in and even in my work right now, it’s just a funny insight that I have. People will be like, “You’re a brilliant facilitator,” or “You solved all of my problems.” And I’m like, “I said like two words in our entire interaction.” And that was my experience at the distress center. And even in my facilitation work right now, I’ll pose a question, people will share their own wisdom and I’ll get all of the credit for it. And so that’s kind of where my interest in that began.

And a lot of the calls, my, a lot of the calls that I was receiving at the distress center was from senior citizens who are tackling issues like loneliness. So I gained a lot of insights on the loneliness epidemic. And so a lot of the conversations that we would have around the workshops around mental health and self-care would be not only in addressing the slowness, but even the interaction in itself of just coming together as community would help to address that.

[06:13] – Turning Passion Projects Into Paid Work

Let’s flip the page then kind of to the next chapter and take us from HR coordinator running these nighttime and evening free workshops for seniors to actually becoming a facilitator and working with organizations. What happened? Fill that gap in to go from A to B.

Sure. So I really loved my job working in nonprofit, and I also loved this volunteer venture. But I’m originally from Ottawa, and most of my family is in Ottawa, and a lot of my siblings are much younger than me. And so it didn’t feel right. And I was with my sister at the time when I was in Toronto, but then she moved out of the city, and so it was just only me in the city. And one of the big values that I have is family. And it just didn’t make sense. I filled the gap of being professionally fulfilled in my work, but it just didn’t make sense because I was just missing so many milestones in my family. Like even trips, on Saturdays, my mother would go to Costco, and I would be on the phone and be like, “Oh, man, I miss Costco adventures.”

And so just kind of having those big existential questions about what is it all about? And so I moved back to Ottawa, and I didn’t have a job, but I figured, you know, I really loved doing those workshops on the evenings and weekends. And so I pitched this idea to the Ottawa Public Library. And funny thing, Michael, and a lot of listeners will probably resonate with this: when you offer things for free, people will willingly take it. But as soon as you start pricing, that’s what I did, I wanted to get paid for this work, now you have to have all of these credentials. And I only had certifications.

And so at the time, I was like, you know, I’ll go back to school. I am an MBA graduate. But I wanted to kind of gain those skills that I have. And so I actually went back to school to become a registered holistic nutritionist and to study naturopathic medicine. And so it was kind of like starting from scratch, but I’m always under the belief like time will pass anyway. And so I was like, I’m probably not the only person who thought of doing workshops. And so I just did a quick Google search and I discovered the International Association of Facilitators. And I was like, that was a new discovery for me. I didn’t know that such a thing existed. I just called myself a facilitator, but there’s an actual professional association.

And so they had a local chapter, and so I went one evening to the local chapter and I discovered this whole new world of consulting. And my background, so I’m a first generation, Michael. And so this career option, this career avenue was never a consideration for me. Like we’re all about doctors or engineers, those career paths. And so I discovered a whole new world. And then I joined the association and then I became a kind of freelance consultant. I did open up my firm at the time, this was back in 2019, but I didn’t know kind of how to get clients or what that looked like. And so I joined a few organizations as a freelancer and that’s kind of how it started. And I kind of co-facilitated some projects with them, and I don’t know how far you want me to go until your next question-

[09:59] – Building a Client Base Through Visibility and Community

No, it’s helpful for people to just see the progression. I think there’s always value in finding people or groups of people who are where you want to be and gaining that connection, building those relationships, getting the insights, creating opportunities because I think is always a smart thing to do. How did you then translate that into your first clients? It sounds like maybe there were some kind of collaborations with other facilitators, consultants that are part of that association. But for you, kind of walk us through when did you kind of land your first client in terms of an organization and just what did that progression in terms of, “Okay, I actually have a business now. I have clients and revenues coming in.” What did that look like?

Yeah, and so a lot was happening at the time, Michael. And I think one thing to note is I know a lot of folks might be familiar with the term “build it and they will come,” but I feel like you should build it, let them know that you’re building it, and then they will come. And so I was very, I don’t know if premature is the term to use, but I just fell in love with what I was doing which was offering those workshops for free. And I just love the feel afterwards of enabling folks to be themselves and establishing that group dynamic where they can have those brave conversations. And so I just started posting on LinkedIn actually of all places, just kind of vocalizing things that I’ve been working on, insights that I have.

And it was during- one big thing that happened during that time: it was COVID. So a lot of communities were coming online and I think that was a big, big advantage. And I was just really hungry for learning. I’m an avid learner. I love to read, I love to learn things. And so I joined all of these communities, Michael, like facilitation communities from New Zealand, from the Netherlands. I remember there was a community that met every Monday at 4:00 AM during my time zone, and I attended those and I learned all of these facilitation methods and techniques that folks were so generously sharing. And also I built a global community during this time of like-minded folks who really appreciated and loved the craft. And I think that’s really important to note: just the deep learning and the community and the connections that I developed through that time.

And at the same time I was vocal and I kind of gained a reputation with the organizations that I was working with on facilitating difficult conversations. And so the types of conversations that I would facilitate would be between executive and frontline staff, so that big power dynamic that was involved. And so they would give me projects that were heavy in scope. Of course I wasn’t getting the type of money that they were because I was freelancing. But at the time, I loved it and I jumped on it.

And I think the big shift for me was, as I was promoting myself on LinkedIn, a colleague that I had gone to university with was now the executive director for a nonprofit organization and she sat on a coalition and this coalition involved universities, other nonprofit organizations. So just a mix of cross-sector, it was a cross-sector coalition and they wanted someone to do their strategic planning. And so she asked me if I did strategic planning. And I always co-facilitated with someone, but I’m always someone who says ‘yes’ and then figures it out along the way. And I think that’s super important to note.

And so I did this and I poured everything into it because it was my first kind of gig, Michael. And it really opened up a lot of doors. I was getting calls from someone who worked at the university, and they wanted help kind of doing engagement with their community around the research that they were doing. I got calls from other nonprofit organizations. And so that was kind of my first gig. And I’m still working for these freelance organizations.

And I think one big shift in my business was when I got a coach actually from Consulting Success and that coach- so one of the freelance organizations that I was working with got contacted by the school board, which has like a $1 billion fund, and they specifically asked for Manal. And I thought that was really strange. I was wondering, where did they hear my name? And so it was for a small workshop that I did with the community health center. And that executive director spread my name to this school board.

And so this freelance, it was one of the hardest conversations I’ve had because when I told this to my coach, they said, “Well, the hardest thing when you’re running a practice is getting your own business.” And so he was really confused as to why I was with these freelancers if I was generating all of this business for myself and they were kind of getting most of the money and giving me a portion of it. And so that question, actually, after I ended that call, Michael, I was working for three freelancers, and I dropped them all. It was an amicable breakup, but it was a breakup nonetheless because you don’t know what you don’t know. And I think the types of questions that he asked really opened up my eyes to it. And it was a hard conversation to have. But I think that was the biggest shift that I’ve ever done for my business. I’ve done a lot of stuff, but after that, Michael, I just started being a lot more vocal with what I can do. And it’s been an upward trajectory. It started with strategic planning and then more difficult conversations and then mergers, amalgamations, more coalition work and systems-level work that I genuinely strongly believe in.

[16:55] – Saying ‘Yes’, Letting Go, and Owning Your Business

You’ve done a great job there. I think a lot of people resonate and have had that experience of being kind of a contractor, subcontractor, working under somebody and one day either realizing themselves or, in your experience, getting some coaching guidance around this, that a lot of what they’re making or could be making is going to somebody else. And in some cases, a lot of value. Like in your situation, probably for most there’s, you know, you learn things and you get experience, but you then reach a point where you can see that you’re now ready to kind of do your own thing, be the master of your destiny, if you will, and be able to control a lot more of what you’re making, who you’re working with, building your own business, building your own kind of client roster. So I think that’s fantastic.

And I just want to kind of summarize what I heard from you, which is you’ve been very open to providing a lot of value to people for free, and putting yourself in the early days in a situation where you’re around others like yourself that you could learn from and always being very open. It sounds like being very open to learning and to giving at the same time without the direct expectation of that turning into revenue right away. In addition to that, focusing on relationships and activating your network, sharing ideas consistently on platforms like LinkedIn and other places.

So all of that, if we had to maybe summarize that package, it’s that you were visible, visible through the networks and groups, visible through your network itself and kind of activating that, the relationship building, but also visible through content creation and kind of publishing. Does that summarize accurately kind of what you have done initially to build the part of the business?

Yes, absolutely. Michael, you did a great summary.

[18:56] – How Trust and Values Attract the Right Clients

Okay. All right. So the other thing you shared is that you’ve been a client of Consulting Success, and I’ve really had the pleasure of getting to know you over the years. And we met in person for the first time quite recently at one of our Consulting Success Masterminds. And I was really struck by how deeply and powerfully you connect with people, how you show up with kindness, compassion. You’re very articulate, even in group settings, surrounded by people you’ve never met in person before. I mean, you’re a very great communicator. And I wanted to ask you about this because a lot of people don’t have that gift or they haven’t necessarily developed it. And so are these areas that you intentionally work on, like, have you always been this way or is this something that you’ve actively developed as a person and as a business owner?

That’s a great question, Michael. So I do value relationships a lot, and I think the way that I operate my business is the way that I operate as a person myself. And if you are looking for a framework, the best framework I have is around trust, because I think that is the most essential skill in business, in life, in relationships, which this whole life thing is all about. And I think the best framework for that is Stephen Covey, if folks are interested in that, The Speed of Trust.

And in this framework, he kind of outlines two elements for folks to trust you, especially in a professional space. One is character. And so these are things like integrity, intent, honesty, fairness, transparency. Authenticity is another one. And then the other one is competence. Like, people won’t trust you if you’re not capable of doing something. And so what results can you have? What’s your knowledge base? Are you credible? What does your performance look like?

And I intuitively apply this in, hopefully, my personal life, but also in my business. I’m very intentional about it. So in terms of competence, I’ll ask for a testimonial to help build that level of credibility. I’m always in training. Like, there’s no training budget. When my sister started coming to work for me, she deals mostly with operations and she’s tried to put a cap on training. I’m like, “There’s no cap on training. If you’re interested in something, you go for it.” But then also things like character. And so in our call earlier, we were talking about relationships and so even having those initial conversations about seeing what types of values that your client has and does your value align? Do your values align?

And so I think that combination of trust and competence helps build trust, and I think that’s what make folks want to work with you and helps build those relationships that hopefully will make you successful in the personal and professional realm.

[22:05] – Why Lifelong Learning Fuels Business Success

Yeah, I want to come back to the client kind of qualification piece that we talked about earlier, because I think there’s a lot of value in that for people. I want them to hear more about that.

You just mentioned, though, like, you don’t have a cap on a training budget. And I think for a lot of people hearing that, it’s probably going to be a bit shocking because a lot of business owners are very conservative when it comes to investing in themselves. And it’s not that they’re not willing to invest in themselves, but the mindset, I believe a lot of people, and just from observation that I see a lot of people having is they look at investing in themselves, training and coaching, whatever else it might be as an expense. And they’re very cautious around that. And so you have a bit of a contrasting kind of viewpoint, it sounds like. And I’m wondering, where does that come from and why do you have that belief and can you maybe talk a little bit about your experience around that?

So I grew up reading, so learning is another big value of mine, Michael. Like even right now, Michael, I don’t just invest in books and training. I also think conversation is a big learning thing, especially for someone who works in human dynamics. And so I’ll have probably two or three coffee chats or sometimes even in person if they’re in the same city just to like- there’s no agenda for these conversations.

Two or three per day, per week?

Per week. And it doesn’t have to be like a long kind of full-day dinner or anything. Sometimes it’ll be as short as 30 minutes. But it’s just to kind of get to know each other or see how we can support one another, whatever that looks like. And so this serves many purposes: I’ll get to know folks, it helps you build your confidence and being able to converse with like-minded people. But it’s also a learning opportunity as well. Like we can read about people, we can read a dozen books, Michael, but nothing beats actually being able to converse with folks.

So I think it’s a personal value that has also served me in my business. I always say like this business is a relationship business and so constantly working on that skill, and humans surprise us all of the time. And so that skill is never-ending. So I think, I’m not sure if I answered your question, but I think it’s a personal value of mine. And as I said, the things that I preach in my business is also something that I practice in my own world. And so a lot of the times organizations would want a strategic plan for the next three to five years. But then I always ask the question, “Well, what do the relationships of the folks who are implementing the plan look like?” Because I genuinely believe that change happens based on these relationships. And so the same things that I preach for my business is what I try to practice for myself.

The mirror effect or concept, right, that your actions should reflect what you actually want to see. So if you’re saying, “Hey, I want to attract high-paying premium clients that will invest a lot into my business and the work that I do,” then you yourself should be willing to invest into yourself as well. So I think oftentimes people have this one-way lack of dynamic, but they want someone to do something that they’re themselves not willing to do and that’s a really hard thing that maybe isn’t always apparent, but in my observation there’s something about a magical kind of component of when you truly commit to whatever it is in many aspects of your life, those actions then tend to send back to you what you’re actually doing yourself. So the more of it you can do, I truly believe to be powerful.

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[27:47] – Qualifying Clients Through Values and Boundaries

Let’s shift a little bit here. Talk about your business because it’s grown considerably over the years and I know earlier today, we had another conversation with some other clients as well, about how you approach client qualification and how important it is to you, to the point that you have this written down around the type of client that you want to work with, the type of client you don’t want to work with, questions that you ask, you’re not necessarily following a script, but that you’ve kind of trained yourself or that you bring into conversation to ensure that you are working with the right types of clients. And you’ve had experiences where you didn’t necessarily follow that and later maybe regretted it. And I think many of us have had that experience. So can you just talk a little bit more about what does that actually look like and what is your process for qualifying people and making sure that you’re attracting the type of clients that you really want?

Most of my business is based on referrals or folks will hear about me, so they kind of have some idea of what I do and what I stand for. I try to make my values very explicit. And it doesn’t land with everyone. And that is the point. It’s not supposed to land with everyone.

Can you give an example of that? When you say it doesn’t land, what is one example of something that might turn off the wrong kind of person, but will attract the right type of person for you and for your business?

I mostly deal with system-levels work, Michael, and so this involves a lot of kind of questioning how we’re doing things and the status quo. And so I’ll use terms like “decolonizing approaches.” Folks might think that’s a little too strong and a little too kind of “out there.” And so folks like that, it’s like, “Okay, if I were to work with you, then we wouldn’t be able to have some of those hard conversations that is needed for the type of change that I would feel would be meaningful for me.” And so if it doesn’t land with you, then it probably wouldn’t make sense for us to work together because then there would be some tensions. I’d have to dilute the processes that I use, or you would be in certain uncomfortable situations.

And I am glad that you kind of honed in on that, Michael, because I think that’s one thing that people really find challenging, the fact that they would turn some folks off if they were to vocalize how they do business. And so I personally, I guess at this, especially at this stage in my career, I don’t mind if it doesn’t land with you. And I think that’s a hard mindset. And I’m glad that you mentioned magic earlier as well, because I feel like a lot of it is magic. But that’s essentially what I mean, Michael. You have to be vocal about what you do. And sometimes being vocal is not going to attract 100% of people and it’s not supposed to. And yeah, I’m not afraid if it kind of excludes some people.

[31:01] – The Power of Niche Focus and Sector Alignment

The exclusion, the depth of focus or kind of specificity around really going narrow, if you will, in terms of saying, “Here’s who I really want to work with.” And I’m not saying this is not only about industry or size of company. This could be about the values of the kind of person or leader or group that you want to work with. But getting to the point where you know that some of what you put out there will in fact turn people away, for a lot of people, that’s scary and they don’t want to do it. They have a mindset of, “The more that I can be open to, the better.” But in the work that we’ve done with consultants over the last 17 plus years at Consulting Success, I’d say the greatest successes or the most successful consultants and firms are the ones that are not afraid to, or maybe they were afraid, but they still flipped the switch and made it very intentional, very clear around who they want to work with and what’s a fit and what isn’t a fit. And so I think it’s that what might feel a little bit contrarian or against the grain, that making that hard decision, in fact will get you what you want. Even though it may not happen overnight, generally, it does create the outcome. So I think hearing from you in terms of your experience around that is a great reminder for people.

If you were to look at, do an X-ray or a scan of your business, the growth that you’ve achieved into seven-figures now, and if you’re thinking about what had the greatest impact, if you were just to identify one thing, I know it’s hard because there’s many things over a period of many years, but what would you say is the one thing that you feel has had the greatest impact on the success that you’ve created and the growth that you’ve achieved?

I think you already mentioned it, Michael. I think it’s honing in, like having that niche. And I think it depends on where you are in your business because when you first start off, you’ll say ‘yes’ to any and everything, which is exactly what I did. And you get burned in the process. And those burns are learnings. And I think that was the biggest thing that I’d done for my business that has caused that big impact. And it was so much so, Michael, that we actually sat down as a team and we identified certain values that we operate under and certain values that would make sense for the types of folks that we work with.

And so even in those vetting calls, these are the values that we keep in mind. Because I know for a fact that this is what’s contributing to our success. Not just in terms of revenue, Michael, but in terms of impact and the types of change that we actually want to see and the types of engagements that we want and that will help us see that level of impact. So I would say focusing on the nonprofit leaders and this sector has been a game changer. And we also have contracts with other organizations because we aren’t necessarily like content experts. We deal mostly with processes. So we help any team or group build clarity around decisions, think in a more structured way, work with group dynamics and navigate conflict, which is in every organization. But I think focusing on the nonprofit space and nonprofit leaders has been a game changer for us.

[34:52] – Relationship Building Without an Agenda

I want to come to your process here in just a moment.

But before we do that, I really feel like my observation, Manal, is that one of your superpowers, beyond being an amazing communicator, is as a relationship builder. And the question that I wanted to ask you is, do you have a system or a series of steps or something that you use to or just a process that you follow around how you think about building, cultivating, nurturing relationships? Or is it just organic? Are you tracking? Are you using a CRM? Do you have a target of having three coffee conversations per week? Walk me through the mind of Manal when it comes to relationship building and cultivating and nurturing relationships for the long term. Because as you said, you know, you’ve built a seven-figure business and the majority of that growth has come from word of mouth. So walk me through how you think about that.

There is no strategy if folks are looking for it. And I always joke about this, but there really is no strategy. And so, fun fact, Michael: I actually grew up very shy and very introverted and in my shell. And so even folks from my MBA, that’s how recent it has been, will look at me in shock. Because even in a lot of the MBA programs, a majority of the grade is based on participation. And I was a high achiever, but as soon as I heard that, I’m like, “I’m okay with just passing the class.” That’s how fearful I was about speaking up. So folks are quite shocked when they see me pretty vocal now.

As I said, I think learning, and a lot of folks know this quote, I’m not sure how many folks apply it, but “Feel the fear and do it anyway” is a big quote that I go by. And people will look at me and they think that I’m a big extrovert, that I’m quite talkative. I’m like, “I feel the fear every single day and I do it.” And so I think having the knowledge about certain things and just forcing myself to do it is the best explanation I can give. Like even in my experience with mental health and community and connection, I just know relationships are essential to creating a mentally sound mind. And so even if I prefer sitting in my own little bubble in the evenings, I know that. And so I force myself to go outside to build relationships and at the end of it I’m always that much better for it.

And the more of it you do, Michael, the more evidence you get that it’s effective, and so the more that you do it. And so even now, my sister will look at my calendar and she’ll see three virtual coffee chats that are 30 minutes long from folks from all over the world, and she’ll ask me, “What is the purpose of this?” I’m like, “There is no purpose. There is no agenda. I just want to chat.” They saw me on LinkedIn, they think I’m interesting, I want to get to know them. That’s why we chat. Because I’ve seen the evidence, Michael.

And sometimes, I’ll just be- so actually, really interesting fact to focus on this whole element of magic in entrepreneurship, because it is something that I do preach quite a lot. Earlier this week, Michael, I sit on the board for a nonprofit organization, and we had the dinner with staff and the board just to kind of get to know each other. And it’s an organization that I did strategic planning for two and a half years ago. And one of the staff who sat in reception and I visited the site plenty of times when I was doing strategic planning, and he sat at reception, and so we kind of interacted quite a bit then. And so when I saw him at this dinner, he remembered me, and he’s like, “Oh, did you just get a contract with the city?” And I was looking at him like, “How did you know?” So it turns out, after the two and a half years, Michael, he kind of got promoted to a coordinator position, and he sat in the steering committee for the city, and he was part of evaluating proposals. And he saw my proposal, and that is a contract that I’m currently working on. And so at the time, I wasn’t interacting with him during reception because I thought that he would be sitting on a steering committee. So a lot of the times when people ask, “How do you get contracts?” I’m like, “Magic.” How do you explain that?

And so it reinforces for me the value of relationships and just putting in 50% of the work and the other 50% the universe, God, whatever, is going to take care of it. And that’s kind of how I describe it. But it just kind of reinforces this whole element of relationships: you don’t have to have an agenda for relationships. The interaction is the reward in itself.

Well, I would say that you do have a strategy. That your strategy is to be consistent with conversations and that the conversations are not based on having a specific transaction, but you are committed to intentionally and consistently having conversations without an agenda, because you know partly that that will create a positive result. There’s no expectation that it’s going to be a positive result tomorrow or next week or next month. But you build relationships, good things come from it, magic takes over, like it’s a connection between all of those. But it’s not a formal business strategy, but it’s a strategy in terms of it’s something that you know is beneficial because if it wasn’t, you might not do it. And so that’s not to take away from you just doing it because you enjoy it. It’s like you know it’s good, but you don’t do it just because of the revenue potential, because you can’t necessarily track that. Or maybe you don’t track that, but you know that the more conversations you have in one way or another, that leads to something good, directly or indirectly, and so you’re consistent with it.

That’s super fair to say, Michael. And you put it in a concise package now so I can continue to do it.

Okay. So I’d love to get a few more questions for you. I’ll be conscious of time. Are you okay for time?

Yes.

[42:00] – A Brave, Inclusive Approach to Strategic Planning

Okay. So I want to ask about your process. You focus on working with leaders, organizations who are going through change, conflict, in one form or another. You have developed or you use a participatory planning process. What does that look like? Just at a high level, how is that maybe different from typical strategic planning or typical kind of facilitation? Can you just share what that actually looks like?

Sure, Michael. And so this is kind of building on the things that I value most, and it’s actually articulated on our website. And so, in our process, in most strategic planning processes, and ones that are well-intentioned, like they’ll distribute a survey, collect input, and then the board will kind of decide the strategic directions. And so in our approach, we actually have shared leadership. So we work with a lot of nonprofit organizations, so folks who actually use the services, that is a form of leadership.

‘Relationships first’, like that is one of the values that we have, so a survey won’t do. We need to get folks in the same room. So in the first phase of our strategic planning process, we will actually form a committee. And this committee consists of board members, leadership staff, and frontline participants. Another value that we have is ‘the courage to stay in the mess’, so having those difficult conversations. And so in one planning process, we actually had police services and folks from the community that had a lot of institutional tension. And so it was really the invitation to have those hard, difficult conversations, which we believe: we don’t want to sugarcoat things, let’s get to the real stuff.

And then ‘collaboration across differences’ is what we believe in. And so a lot of the times when we think about the term collaboration, we feel like we have to hold hands and go backpacking in Europe together. But that’s not what we believe. We believe collaboration: you don’t have to like the person, sometimes you don’t even have to trust the person, but you kind of have the same mission or vision and so you have to work together to achieve that similar mission. And so these are some of the values that help guide the types of processes that we facilitate.

And so a lot of the times especially in this sector, there’s this sense of urgency, like we just have to get it done because of funding deadlines, because of XYZ. But relationships are built at the speed of trust. And so our processes are much longer. And so that is why we have these vetting conversations: is this leader willing to engage in these hard conversations that will help surface some of the issues that need to get addressed? Because we don’t feel like relationships can be rushed. And so in our facilitated sessions, it’s an experience. It’s not just extracting information and feedback from participants. It’s really engaging in dialogue and addressing things that aren’t normally said or spoken of.

[45:29] – Leading With Courage for Stronger Client Outcomes

Yeah, I love that.

What’s one thing that you do today with your clients that you didn’t do before and you’re doing it now because it has a real positive impact in your engagements and work?

I’m definitely a lot braver, Michael, and I think that comes with experience. Before I simply just said ‘yes’ to everything, but I think now I have evidence of how these processes work and that they work. And so, as I mentioned, I don’t think that I’m a content expert. And whenever I work with an organization, I make it explicit that they have the knowledge and the wisdom to impact change in their communities. However, I am a process expert and to not necessarily trust the process, I open up that two-way communication where they can question me and I can question them. And I think I didn’t have that relationship before. I kind of took a more submissive role, for lack of a better word, because they’re the client.

But now I don’t have that really. It’s more of a partnership. And I’m super mindful around the types of words and phrasing that I use when I interact with the client because I find that the most fruitful engagements are ones where we can work as partners, where I trust them and they trust me and we work as a partnership, as opposed to, “Oh, I hired you to do work,” which is kind of the mind frame that I had when I first started.

And do you find that because now you are braver, you’re being more direct, that clients respect you and the work more and that therefore it creates a better outcome for all, or you’re just more comfortable? What’s the net positive or the outcome that you’ve seen since you’ve been braver and more comfortable having those conversations?

Well beyond just kind of have a healthy relationship, I think I genuinely believe in generative inquiry. It’s not about having all of the answers, and I always make it explicit that I don’t have all of the answers. So please, question me. So it’s not like I’m coming there with my know-it-all hat. But I think it’s really experience, Michael, and I think it’s a mindset shift that you just have to believe in what you’re doing and the work and the value that you bring and that you can vocalize that in a confident manner.

And I think that’s why a lot of the scoping or the introductory conversations feel so comfortable for me. I don’t feel like I’m selling anything because I genuinely believe that what we’re offering is valuable to the folk that are seeking our services and simply having a conversation and articulating it in a manner. And I think people sense that. I think it’s an energy thing. People sense if you know what you’re talking or if you’re a fake or if you’re a grifter.

Yeah. I mean this is why I do believe, in my experience, that clients respect you more when you show up confidently and are not scared to be direct, which doesn’t mean being rude, and it doesn’t mean, as you said and I completely agree, that you have all the answers. No one has all the answers, but oftentimes people are uncomfortable, they’re scared, they’re fearful of, “Am I going to hurt the client’s feelings? Are they gonna feel that I’m too direct or that I might lose the business?” But the more comfortable and confident that you are, the more confidence that conveys to the client. And that’s a great platform to build that peer-to-peer relationship on. So I’m really glad that you highlighted that.

[49:41] – Why Leaders Must Acknowledge, Not Solve, Everything

My final question for you for today, Manal. I know there’s a lot more that we can go into, but I want to be conscious of our time. So the world- as you and I were kind of speaking before we hit record on this, that the world is going through what feels like more change at a faster speed than we’ve ever had. There’s AI, conflicts, wars, uncertainty, you name it. The list can go on and on and on. And I’d love to know what you’re hearing from the leaders and groups that you’re working with that is top of mind for them today. Are there certain themes that are coming up more often? Concerns, just points of view that might be interesting for others to kind of hear about?

Well, recently I actually facilitated a masterclass on this and I actually sent a survey to the leader. So you asked the right question, Michael. But I think a lot of leaders are fearful of having conversations around these topics and I think it really is harming the dynamics of their group. And from the conversations I’ve had with these leaders, they feel that it is their responsibility to solve the issues. And I could not articulate more that they do not have to.

And so I think folks just need to get validated that there is this heaviness around. And I think a lot of leaders are afraid of acknowledging it because they feel like they have to solve the issue. “Well, I can’t open up that can of worms because if I do, then I’ll have to solve it.” And so one of kind of the check-in questions that I have, and I actually did this with the participants in this masterclass is I asked the check-in question: “What part of you does not want to be here?”

I did this for a session that I was running, Michael, and I often tell this story quite a lot because it was for a strategic planning session, it was for a national organization and folks were flying in from all over the country. And so there’s this travel fatigue, but people feel like they have to be super happy. And so the aura in the morning was just “Oh, nice!” It was just very, it felt superficial for me. So I posed this question, Michael. And the types of things that surfaced were very real. And so one person, it was during the summer, said, “Well, my family was going to the cottage and I have to come here.” One person said, “I have a routine every Saturday, but I couldn’t do the routine because I had to come here.” One person said that it was the one-year anniversary of her father’s passing.

And so this check-in did not take longer than 20 minutes. But now folks are able to kind of mentally park that and focus on strategic planning. But when I mention this or when I kind of suggest this, people think, “Oh, well, if we mention that, then we have to solve it.” I’m like, “No, you don’t. People are thinking about it anyway.” But once you put it out into the room, now they’re more present in the room because they’ve kind of parked that, whereas they would be dwelling on that the entire time. Now you can focus on the conversation.

So I don’t know if that answered your question, Michael, but I think for a lot of leaders right now with all of this stuff that’s happening, they tend to ignore it in the work setting because it’s not professional. But I think it would because people are thinking about it because the folks that they’re leading are anxious about it. They should just invite it into the room. We don’t have to dwell on it. We don’t have to talk about it, but acknowledging it makes a lot of a difference. And this goes back to kind of my volunteering at the distress center: I’m not solving their issues, like their relationship or their financial issues. But people just need to kind of put it out there and then at the end of the call, I somehow solved their problems. And so it’s just drawing on from that experience and that knowledge as well.

[53:45] – Where to Connect With Manal Online

That’s wonderful. So, Manal, I want to thank you so much for coming on today and sharing just some of your journey and best practices. As I mentioned, there’s a lot more that we could cover. I want people to be able to learn more about you and the work that your company, Sayid Consulting, does and the work that your team does. Where’s the best place for them to go to to learn more?

I think LinkedIn would be the best way to get a hold of me. Yeah, I’m quite active on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manalsayid/

Yes, you are. We will link that up in at the show notes or on the show notes page here for this episode at consultingsuccess.com so people can check out Manal on LinkedIn. Easy to find: Manal Sayid, and just let her know where you heard about her so that she knows where you’re coming from. A little personal note is always nice.

Manal, again, thank you so much for coming on. Really enjoyed our conversation today.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Michael. Great questions. Take care.

Important Links:

Manal Sayid
Sayid Consulting
International Association of Facilitators
The Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey
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