What are strategic goals? How do they impact your business? What do you need to do to hit these goals? Our guest in this episode knows the answers to these questions and will gladly share it with everyone. Michael Zipursky sits down to interview the CEO of Outfield Leadership and author of The Self-Evolved Leader, Dave McKeown, about learning to set and achieve strategic goals as a consultant. Plus, Dave shares his insights on goal setting and leadership in large organizations. Tune in for more consulting secrets from the best in the industry.
I am here with Dave McKeown. Welcome.
Michael, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here with you.
Dave, you’re a founder, a keynote speaker and an author. You help leaders set and achieve strategic goals. You’re the CEO of Outfield Leadership, where you’ve worked with clients like FedEx, O’Reilly Salesforce and many others. Let’s start off going back in time. In 2010, you were working at Accenture. You’re originally from Ireland, then some time in Scotland. You’re now based in the US but take us back to the time at Accenture. First of all, what was it like? What was that experience for you to be working at a well-known consultancy?
It was a fantastic experience and if anybody is in the early stages of their career and looking for a place to hone some consulting skills, I recommend getting some experience under your belt with a larger organization. It gave me a good perspective on what it meant to be an effective leader in a large organization and then how to problem solve, approach clients, and develop some good early-stage consulting skills. I loved that. I had a great time there, but I always felt that ultimately I wanted to move on and do something outside of that. There was always the sense of it being such a large organization and I wanted to get some experience in some other environments.
During that time, you often hear about people working at larger consulting organizations whose hours are crazy. They’re being driven to high levels of stress. Was there anything about that experience from a lifestyle perspective that was challenging for you?
All of the things that you talk about do happen and they probably happen more than not. I was in Accenture for close to four years and it was on the same project for almost that entire time. It was in one of the industries that weren’t as hard-charging. I was in the healthcare division. We were working with the National Health Service of the United Kingdom, which is notorious for starting at 9:00 AM and clocking off at 5:00 PM. I had all of these peers that I joined. They were going and working in financial services and tech, and their clients who are up to 11:00, 12:00 or 1:00 at night. I lucked out a lot that the requirements in that perspective weren’t heavy on me.
I did have to spend a lot of time on the road and for a whole bunch of reasons. I ended up living essentially in two different hotels for three years. One was during the week whenever we were with our client. The second one was for personal reasons, it made more sense for me to stay in a different hotel during the weekend rather than go and stay in an overly priced apartment in London. I spent a lot of time in hotels.
Hopefully, you got some perks with all that time. When you get to look back in hindsight, is there one important lesson that you learned and feel that you were able to apply to your consulting business, that by far and away had an extraordinary or substantial impact more than other things, whether that something you’re doing currently and still keeps with you or something that helped you in the early stages? Is there anything that stands out for you?
My boss during that time had an incredible ability to get individuals or groups of people to understand the root cause of problems and challenges that we were dealing with, and to stay relentlessly focused on solving that challenge. I observed this over and over again both in the personal interactions that I had with them and also in these team environments. It was fascinating to watch because he did it in such an unassuming way. The world of consulting sometimes can be a little emotional.
You’re talking with people with egos and teams. You’re trying to move towards a common goal. He had this brilliant way of getting everybody to focus on challenges that we could overcome rather than staying fixated on emotions, ego, personal aims or goals. That was something that I observed in him and I was able to develop my own approach with the teams that I work with. It’s a very useful skill to have as a consultant.
I’m going to have to dive deeper into this a little bit to make sure we’re serving the community and all of our readers. I can’t let you off the hook too easily there, Dave. Break that down a little bit. Can you share maybe an example of your time at Accenture where you were witnessing this firsthand, or when you’ve been able to apply it in your own business with teams and clients? I want to make it more tangible for everyone. How would you go about making it so that it was easier to identify those problems and also appropriate effectively when you’re dealing with different egos, which anyone that’s inclined services or professional services deals with pretty regularly?
If you think about a broad question like, what are some of the challenges that you’re dealing with right now? That can be a question that you ask a client at the beginning of an engagement. That can be a question you ask a team of people halfway through an engagement. That can be a question you ask somebody in a regular conversation. Often, whenever you ask, “What challenges are you dealing with?” The person or the team responding will lay out a litany of issues.
Some of them will be directly related to what they’re working on. Some of them will be directly related to how they felt whenever they got up that morning. For a lot of folks, the answer to that question was there’s no separation between any of those issues. Somebody could say, “My boss has given me a tough time. My team’s not delivering what they need. My kids were super annoying this morning. I’ve got to deal with this thing with my spouse. The traffic was terrible getting to work.”
It’s a whole range of stuff and being able to then unpack all of that and say, “There are signs like there’s a lot in there. Which of these are most pertinent to you? Which of these are the most challenging?” It’s getting folks to prioritize the issues that they have in front of them. The next step is saying, “If you could only work on one or two of these, which would they be?” It’s getting folks to narrow and prioritize and choose the challenges that they’re faced with. It’s a good starting point to then go in and helping them get somewhere.
First of all, I’ve never heard the unpicking before. I’ll have to remember that. That’s a great one. I often talk to clients about this concept of peeling the layers of the onion back and you want to get to the core. Oftentimes what you’ll see consultants do is they’ll ask a question and they’ll take the answer at the surface level and then move on to the next but by going deeper, as you’ve broken down for us here, that’s where the real value is. That’s where the things that matter start to be identified.
There’s a great book called The Coaching Habit by a fellow Canadian guy called Michael Bungay Stanier. If you haven’t picked it up, it’s excellent in diving into that method. His leading principle is the first thing that somebody tells you is often not the true challenge that they’re facing or there’s just a nuanced version of it. The problem is we spend a lot of time in our organizations. We’re trying to work on that first issue and the thing is it’s a lot like hitting a golf ball.Consulting can be a little emotional. You're talking with people with egos and teams, and you're trying to move towards a common goal. Click To Tweet
I don’t know if you play golf. I play it terribly but if you hit a golf ball a millimeter off where you’re intending to hit it, it doesn’t end up a millimeter away from where you want it. There’s a component in the impact that ends up in the bunker or the water or in my case, three holes over. When we spend time solving even a nuanced incorrect version of a problem, we can waste a lot of time there. Giving some space and asking some questions to get to that core challenge, I think will see any consultant or team’s valuable time in the backend because you’re solving the right problem.
The second thing coupled with that, back to your original question where the manager in this situation was very good at, is on centralizing the locus of the challenge on the individual because often we can express our challenges as external. They’re out there, “It’s the economy, it’s that team or it’s my boss.” Those are all great. Those are difficult challenges to solve. Centering on the person and say, “What’s the challenge for you? What are you struggling with?” When you can get somebody to open up on that, then you can start working on something that they can actually solve.
In 2017, you started Outfield Leadership. You mentioned you had this drive and desire to go out on your own. How long did it take you to feel like things were working? You reached that tipping point where you felt enough confidence to not think of going back to the corporate world and know that things are moving in the right direction. Was that weeks, months, years? At what point did you feel that you’d reach that tipping point?
Probably a year or so, I knew that I could do it. Beforehand, I was working for another boutique consultancy company. I could do it on my own but I didn’t have a track record. A lot of my identity was tied up in the previous organizations that I was working with. There’s always a box stop there if you’re part of another organization. There’s always a safety net there. It wasn’t all at once, so you get your first couple of clients. I do some keynote speaking as well as you get your first keynote gig. At some point, you wake up and you realize, even if it’s not always going to be smooth sailing, which in our world isn’t always, it’s something that I’m prepared to make work over the long term, no matter what happens. The more I get got away from the corporate world, the more I realized that I was ill-fitted for it. It doesn’t fit with who I am and how I show up.
As you encounter some of those challenges along the way as we all do, where do you go in your mind or what do you turn to, to overcome those challenges? That first year or so, we think, “Am I cut out for this? Should I go back and do something else?” When you reached or hit up against those roadblocks, what did you do? Do you read? Do you talk to people? What have you found that’s been most helpful? Even nowadays, when you encounter challenges in the business, how do you find that you’re able to push beyond them?
I like to do a reflective exercise. My wife and I do this quite often. We ask each other and we ask ourselves, “If you said to the version of yourself that this is where you would be a year from now, would you take it?” I don’t think the answer has ever been no. Whatever circumstances we’ve gone through, I’ve been fortunate enough that even in the hardest of hard times, I reflect back and go, “No, I would still do what I did to get to where I am. That is good.” Often, when we forecast where we hope that we want to get to and we compare where we are to that rather than comparing that to where we were and comparing it to where you were is almost always at a much fairer comparison for your level of success. I do that exercise quite a lot. It’s helpful.
That’s on the mark. I see this a lot as well with clients. As entrepreneurs and business owners, we tend to always focus on the future goals and forget what we’ve done to get to where we are, not actually taking the time to appreciate what we’ve accomplished. You’re right, it’s looking back and going, “Where was I six months ago or a year ago? Have I made progress? Look how much I’ve actually accomplished.”
It can help you to feel good to see, “I’ve gotten to this point. Now let’s look at where I want to get to next.” That’s a great exercise. I appreciate you bringing that back up. We talked about goals and goal setting with business owners. You talk about strategic goals. What is a strategic goal because people throw that word around? I used it a moment ago, setting goals for the future. In your mind, what’s the definition of a strategic goal and how does it differ from a typical goal?
A strategic goal is one that is a high enough level that it has a direct correlation to the team or the organization achieving its overarching mission and vision. For me, the whole point of goal setting is to help you and your team link the actions that you take on a daily basis to achieve what your overarching mission and vision are for the organization. Any person takes anywhere between 80 and 120 non-trivial actions or decisions a day that is typically runway level. If more of those bring us closer to our mission and vision, then that’s a good day. If more of those take them further away, then it’s a bad day.
Strategic goal setting for a team or an organization has to stay at that level. It’s typically could be a longer-term goal, usually something that’s at least a year. We can see that if we achieve that goal by the end of this year, that brings us closer to achieving whatever that overarching mission or vision is. You then think about it. Any strategic goal that you have or set for yourself is likely going to have more than one tactical project that sits underneath it to achieve our strategic goal. There are usually multiple layers of tactics that are there that we need to achieve. If you stress testing that, if you’ve got a strategic goal and there’s only one project that sits underneath it, it may not be at a high enough level. It might roll into something above that.
What does that process look like? Are you looking on and say, “Here’s our vision, our values, our mission, here’s where we want to be in 12 months or 24 months from now?” Is it reverse engineering that and going, “In order for us to be at this point in twelve months. Here’s what we need to accomplish over the next four quarters,” and then break that quarterly down to the monthly, and the monthly down to the weekly? Is it a different approach? What do you find works best for you and for your clients to ensure they’re making meaningful progress on those strategic goals that they’ve identified?
You’ve got to take it from both sides. Most leaders in most organizations are pretty good at setting some longer-term strategic goals and pretty good at knowing what they’re doing on a daily basis. It’s a bit in the middle that breaks down. That stuff that you were talking about quarterly reviews and monthly reviews. Most strategic goals, where they die is in that part because there’s not enough of a leading indicator on whether we’re achieving it and trying to stitch those two things together.
From a leadership perspective, it’s having that implementation rhythm, and then from the rest of the organization, inputting into that and saying, “Here’s my personal set of goals for the next month or the next quarter,” and ensuring that there’s at least a degree of tying all of that up together. We’ve got to tackle it from both sides because if you take the top dime perspective, you lose a lot of buy-ins, empowerment and alignment from your team that you would get if you included them in the process.When we spend time solving an incorrect version of a problem, we waste a lot of time. Click To Tweet
Your website focuses and puts the spotlight on your workshop. You have it big in the main navigation that says, “Workshop.” Is that the main offering that you have or are there other offerings? Can you take us through what are the different product services that you provide to the marketplace?
Most of the work that I do with organizations starts with a two-day strategic planning session. Usually, somebody comes to me and says, “Dave, I’ve read your work. I’ve seen you speak. We’d love for you to work with me and my team on helping with some longer-term planning.” Spending those two days together, we do two things. One, we create a plan for the next twelve months for the team or we review their current plan and make changes to it if necessary. Secondly, it gives me the opportunity to assess how well that team functions together, and where some of the issues and the challenges are. You know yourself that a good strategic plan is only as good as the people that are there to implement it.
One of the biggest downfalls or where strategic plans falter is if the leadership team isn’t developed enough, they don’t have the skillset or the tools to build an implementation rhythm, or they don’t have the ability to assess new inputs into their world to make changes or tweaks to that plan as they go along. After those two days, I usually come back and say, “Here’s the plan that you built. It looks great. Also, here are my thoughts on how this team works together. Here were some of the strengths and some of the development issues are.” At that point, I engage in a conversation that says, “Do you want some assistance on helping to address those?” Ultimately, that’s where this is going to succeed.
That strategic session, is that the workshop? Is it essentially a two-day workshop?
Do you find that most people reach out to you to begin the conversation of the workshop just by coming to your website? Is it they’ve read some of your content? I know you’re a columnist or you publish on Inc.? Is it through your keynote speaking? What is the channel that you find drives most of the inquiries and leads coming into your world?
Mostly it’s through speaking. Secondly, it’s through reading the book, and thirdly, it’s through referrals. There’s all a degree of warmth there. I don’t get a lot of cold folks calling and saying, “I stumbled across your website. Let’s talk.” There’s usually a degree of education that’s happened.
Either they are reading, there’s a referral or they see you speak, then they contact you. There’s a two-day workshop. That’s what in our world we often describe as a discovery or a starting point and then from there, you’re identifying and providing recommendations for the client and ways to assist them. That would then turn into a full engagement. Is that correct?
That’d be a longer-term engagement. Usually, it’s some version of there are some team assistance. How do we build an implementation rhythm and ensure that your team has the skillset to make high-quality decisions for the organization? There may be a recommendation for some ongoing one-on-one coaching with either the CEO, the president or some other folks on the executive team to try to help glue all of that together. That ends up being a longer-term engagement.
What do you do when a client or a prospective client comes in and says, “Dave, I saw you speak. I’d love to get your help. I don’t want to do the two-day workshop. Let’s dive right into a longer-term engagement. We know what the issue is. Let’s get started.” How do you respond to that? How do you handle that situation?
It’s funny because it does happen. Often, my response is, “I’m perfectly comfortable. We can do that.” I’ll go and engage in a normal discovery call and I’ll say, “We can come up with some recommendations based on that. However, I want you to know that there will likely be some shifts and changes as we engage in this. Here are the 2 or 3 things that might likely come out. It’s your call. We could save some time and money at the front end by doing this and discovering some of those issues or we can move forward. We’ll have to address them as we go. That can then go either way. Either thy go, “You’re right. Let’s start there.” They can say, “Let’s dig in and let’s go with it and we’ll see what happens.”
What percentage of your business would you say starts with the two-day workshop as opposed to full engagement?
Almost all of it.
How did you come up with a pricing strategy for the workshop? You hear people charging a couple of thousand dollars for a workshop all the way up to $15,000 to $25,000 for a one-day workshop. How did you think about and decide on where to price your two-day workshop?
Having spent 9 to 10 years in the industry doing it, I’ve got a pretty good sense of what the market rate is for the value that comes out of it. I think that whenever you have that good sense, confidence, and ability to deliver on that value, it’s a lot easier to stick a price tag on it and stick with it. My experience in the previous boutique consulting company had given me some base levels. Whenever I went out on my own, I was able to adjust according to some of the factors that were there.
Everyone wants to know what is that market rate. What does the industry typically bear? You can share as much as you’re comfortable with your own situation, but also what have you seen in other firms. What is the standard for providing a one-day or two-day workshop that you think is the right level?
If you’re delivering a solid one-day workshop, whether it’s consulting or training, you probably got a bandwidth of somewhere between about $5,000 and $14,000 to play, depending on what the end result is for the organization. Also, there’s a degree of notoriety that gets built into that. Somebody is prepared to pay more for somebody that they know of. My sense is anything more than the $14,000 and you have to be in a big well-known territory. Probably anything less than $5,000, you’re maybe selling yourself a little short. That window of $5,000 to $14,000, there’s a place to play.A good strategic plan is only as good as the people that are there to implement it. Click To Tweet
When you came with your pricing strategy, did you essentially say, “It’s somewhere in that range. This is a two-day, not a one-day.” Was it essentially doubling that fee or did you compensate for expenses or sunk costs? How did you think about the one-day versus two-day pricing?
I think you get the room to play in there and see what works. I personally don’t double the time. You’ve got to try to a fine line between tidying up the price to your time versus tidying up the price to the value that you bring. It can’t always be that way because you can say that to the client, but you’re always thinking in your head, “How much time is this taking from me anyway?” To use that old celebrity diva line, there’s a price to get you out of bed. If you think of whether I’d say a 90-minute keynote or a one-day workshop, there’s a price to get you there. In particular, if it involves travel, you’ve done the travel, and you’ve made that happen. How does that then play out over a day or two? You take the one day instead of two days, then there’s an increment that’s not as close to a full two-day fee.
Have you increased your pricing over time or is it steady for the last several years? What’s the progression been in your pricing?
After about a year, I incremented a little bit. I brought it a dime probably that first year to test the market and see what it could bear. As you get busy, your time is the scarce factor there, so you get to put it up and see if the market will bear it. COVID has caused an interesting pause on a lot of stuff. I was getting to the point of evaluating and increasing it again, and then that happened. I’ve put a pause on everything and I’m hoping that probably in the next 6 to 12 months, we can go up again.
You are the facilitator for that two-day workshop. Have you ever thought about building a team to help you with the delivery of the workshop or even the delivery of a full engagement after the workshop?
Many times. It’s a conversation that I have internally with myself and with my wife quite a lot. In the previous company that I was with, that was my sole goal. It was a family business. My father was a solo consultant and a solo facilitator. He said, “I want to build a team out of this.” We went down that path and that process. It has a huge upshot and it’s also a lot of work. We assume that it’s super easy to get somebody in and say, “This is what I do. You go do it.” The root of codifying, what it is that you do, and training somebody to do that quality controlling that. Also, whenever it comes to less pure training, more facilitation and consulting, the reality is as a solo consultant, people are buying you.
They may be buying your methodology as well but quite often, if you’re a one-man band, the connection is with you as a person. How do you instill some of that in a group of other people? If you go down this route, you get the opportunity to scale, to grow a bit more. You’re not the one that has to necessarily get on the plane and do it all the time, but then you’ve got an extra overhead of managing that side of things. It’s all about being intentional with what you do. When I set out to build what I’m doing now, I said, “That’s a decision that I might want to make.” I don’t necessarily want to make a right now, but I want to build enough systemization. Even though I’m doing that, should I make that decision? At some point, it will be a little easier to do that.
We have a lot of resources for doing that. I’ve worked my consultants shut off. I can send you some links or different things that might help in that journey. For you, what would it take in your mind to say, “I’m now ready to build that out.” There something in terms of a desire or is there something you would need to have in order for it to be worthwhile for you? If you think about it, I’m happy staying solo and staying lean and profitable. What’s that conversation in your mind right now?
Happy at the minute, definitely staying solo and lean. I think it would be market-driven for me right now rather than personal-driven. If it got to the point where I was turning down some serious work, it’s because I couldn’t go out and do it because it was overbooked. That would be the point that I would seriously consider making that transition and making that leap. That would be it.
You mentioned COVID. Certainly, for many people who generate leads or revenue through in-person speaking, as you did, COVID poses a pretty big challenge. What’s that been like for you in terms of moving more to the virtual online stage? Have you made any big shifts in your business that still remain as we’re now starting to see some of the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to COVID?
First of all, whenever all of this happened, the thing that I said to myself was, “I am not going to replicate what I do offline in a virtual setting because it’s a different medium and it’s a different way of delivery.” I’m not sure that everybody quite got that. My goal in any session that I deliver is to craft a compelling experience for the participants and merely sharing some slides on a Zoom call with your Apple wireless microphones is not going to cut it. I invested a lot of time and money in building a virtual studio here that would allow me to do that and then also getting much better at creating a compelling virtual experience because you’re not able to rely on the energy in the room to carry the session.
You’ve got to draw that out of the folks a little bit more. It’s not going to be fascinating to see when you look at the prospect of truly hybrid sessions where you’re in a room with twenty other people and then there are 60 other people that are dialed in. I don’t know whether that’s going to be prevalent or not, but it’ll be fascinating to see how that can be done because that it gives another opportunity for speakers, facilitators and consultants to hone another part of their craft.
Have you found any tool technology that’s helped you to make that environment richer and more effective and valuable for your clients in terms of any tools or anything that you’ve done or software and things that have helped you from the online virtual standpoint?
There are a couple of things. There’s a tech setup. I have what they call lighting, which I didn’t know is a thing. I’ve got two lights here and I’ve got a light behind me. That apparently is what creates good light. I also had to learn that those ring lights aren’t good for people with glasses because the ring actually comes into your glasses. You can’t get rid of it. You can only see the square lights here, it’s much better. I’ve got a large monitor here with actually two webcams on it. That allows me to switch my view if I need to if I’m talking to the audience or I’m looking at my slides. Investing in a good microphone and a good setup that way is huge. That’s the tech side of things.You've got to find a line between tidying up price to your time versus tidying up price to the value you bring. Click To Tweet
We all know the tools are just tools. Finding other places where virtual training is happening and getting inspiration there is also important. Before the lockdown, I bought a Peloton and watching trainers essentially make the same shift, which was away from a hybrid model to a purely virtual model. It was fascinating seeing how they engage a completely virtual audience. I took a huge number of tips away from them. It’s like learning any skill, trying to find the experience being well done in practice can be helpful.
That’s a good idea. There are many examples that have been successful in people borrowing ideas from different industries and bringing them into their own where they hadn’t been seen before. The one from Peloton is a great example where you’re almost gamifying that experience or bringing a lot more interactivity to it. You’re not just staring at a screen, looking at your own bike or your own movement. There’s a community. There are others to replicate the environment of being in a class, looking over and seeing someone sweating or being yelled at by a teacher. I’ve never had that experience because I’ve never been on a stationary bike like that, but that’s my belief of what it looks like. I may be off the mark there.
You describe it like you’ve been part of it. That’s exactly it. One of the things that they’re very good at that I’ve started to try to integrate into my own sessions is honoring the commitment that participants have made to be there like, “Thank you for choosing to spend the time here with me. You could have been anywhere else. It may have been mandated by your boss, but you’re here.” The intention setting is well like, “What do you want to get out of this session? Why are you here? What does success look like for you? How can I best serve that and help you get there?” I think it is helpful in a virtual setting because there are many distractions.
When we try to implement gimmicky ways to engage people without giving them the opportunity to truly set their intention then it can fall a little flat, but if you look at somebody and say, “You’ve chosen to be here. Thank you. What you get out of this time is directly related to what you want to put into it. Let’s spend a couple of minutes and give you the opportunity to reflect on what you want to put into this. There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s just about you checking in with yourself.”
You’re making me think about something that we’ve done over this period of COVID. We started to run online workshops in small groups like 8 to 15 people or so. One of the things that I found based on the feedback from participants that people have been finding most valuable. It’s trying to make it interactive. I say to people at the beginning, “We can all see each other here on the Zoom screens, but I want you to imagine we were in one room like a conference room or something together. That means that you wouldn’t be looking at your phone if I was up at the front. I could see you physically if you were right there. Please don’t look at your phone during this time. This is your time. Make the most of it,” and then engaging with people and allowing them the opportunity to ask questions.If you've got confidence in your ability to deliver value, it's a lot easier to stick a price tag on it and stick with it. Click To Tweet
That interactivity and engagement are powerful because it’s easy to get lost in the digital side where you have other tabs and other things going on. Hopefully, you would never have that distraction if you were sitting in front of a presenter, a speaker or somebody facilitating a workshop. We found that those small group workshops have been great. In some cases, we even spread them over a couple of days. People have time to reflect on what we’ve learned or what we’ve gone through on day one. They can work on that and come back a few days later or a week later. We then do the second session. Now they can get feedback and critiques on what they’ve done on day one. That’s a little structure that we found to work well. It ties in to exactly what you’ve been talking about.
That’s a great structure. I do think that taking what used to be a one-day workshop and making it into 2-hour workshops to 3-hour workshops that are split out over time gives folks that opportunity to practice and then get some feedback. The other thing that is good to remember is that people process their takeaways in essentially three ways, either through their own internal reflection, talking one-on-one, in a small group or a larger group debrief. Too often, a facilitator just goes straight to the group debrief. Whenever you do that, all you’re doing is giving the folks who process that way the opportunity to share more. Building in time for individual reflection, and if you feel comfortable using something like the breakout rooms to put people in twos or threes for a smaller group reflection before you come for a broader discussion can be helpful.
Dave, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming to the show. I want to make sure that people can learn more about you, your work, your book, and everything else that you have going on. What’s the website that everyone should check out.
You talked earlier about Outfield Leadership, which is that two-day workshop. Feel free to go there. If you want to learn more about the book, go to SelfEvolvedLeader.com and you can find out all of the information there. I’m also pretty active on LinkedIn and Twitter, @DaveMcKeown. Check me out there.
Thanks for joining.
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